Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[shrink]

Today, I had the 1-year battery inspection and the P32270 software update on Blue842, the local control car in last year's range test. We lost the 1st capacity bar earlier this month. It's in the Wiki. I can't remember the exact date.

5/5 stars on the battery report, which also indicated 11 of 12 capacity bars remain. Mileage is 11,364 and I took it home last year on 6/26/2012 with 7 miles on the odometer.

11 capacity bars still showing after the software update.

Phoenix high temps are 118-119 today. Last night, it was still over 100 around after 11pm. I'm sure the pavement is much hotter.

1-year remaining on this lease. I wonder how many bars will remain when I turn it in.

 

[LEAFfan]

an AZ friend's occasional FB posts about his temps, I don't think we're anywhere near as bad as Phoenicians esp. since it almost always cools down at night here.

He lives near Phoenix and here are some examples:
On June 18, 2012, he posted a screenshot of 111 F temp for Phoenix from a weather app.
On July 10th, he posted a 104 F pic from his car and said at 9:40 pm, it's still over 100 F.
On Aug 5, 2011, he posted a pic of his car showing 100 F at 9:17 pm.
On July 2, 2011, he posts a pic of his car showing 117 F.

The above Phoenician Facebook friend posted some temps yesterday.

On June 28, 2013, he posted a pic of his Prius showing it's 117 F outside at 4:07 pm (Pacific time, I believe).
On the same day, at 10:26 pm, he posted his Prius showing it's still 100 F outside at 10:15 pm, saying it was 2.5 hours after sunset. Also said it "Was still 108° in Downtown Phoenix when we left there at around 9:40pm!"

Crazy!

Broke a temp record today...at 1:21PM it hit 118F at PHX Sky Harbor. It could go higher later.

 

[CayenneSJLEAFy]

An update. The software update-P3227 did not restore the 12th bar. No surprise, but the 2nd annual report shows five stars across the board. However, the dealer wants to take a more detailed look at the battery. I will be returning to the dealer in 2 weeks so they will keep the car for three days to plug in the test equipment. I'm not confident that they will find anything amiss on this. But if they're considering this a warranty issue, then it's worth a shot.

 

[mwalsh]

Got the letter in today's mail. Will scan it a bit later, if nobody else gets theirs and the group wants to see it. I don't even have time to read it properly myself just now.

Here's the letter. Cut the letterhead off to protect my home address. Sorry about file format and size - can't upload .pdf files and maximum .jpg size is 256kb. It is readable if you make sure you're viewing it full-size.

 

[twingo]

Now that I'm an official member of the 11 bar club, the issue has piqued my interest. I am not a regular participant here but do subscribe to the Google Alert system which sends me daily messages on any topics around the world related to the Leaf. And I recall an article about the guy in Washington State who went nearly 80K miles before losing his first bar and another guy in the UK who has gone 36K with regular 100% and fast-charging and hasn't lost a bar. There seems to a range of circumstances leading to capacity loss which make me wonder:

Can they be listed in order of highest-to-lowest impact, and what might that order might look like. For example

#1 Ambient temperature
#2 fast charging
#3 80% vs 100% charging
#4 Driving immediately after charging
#5 Charging immediately after driving
#6 miles driven
#7 others

And I also wonder how much of a factor time might have to do with it? Do batteries loose capacity simply because of time to the point where using the battery can be less important than it's age?

 

[Randmac]

Now that I'm an official member of the 11 bar club, the issue has piqued my interest. I am not a regular participant here but do subscribe to the Google Alert system which sends me daily messages on any topics around the world related to the Leaf. And I recall an article about the guy in Washington State who went nearly 80K miles before losing his first bar and another guy in the UK who has gone 36K with regular 100% and fast-charging and hasn't lost a bar. There seems to a range of circumstances leading to capacity loss which make me wonder:

Can they be listed in order of highest-to-lowest impact, and what might that order might look like. For example

#1 Ambient temperature
#2 fast charging
#3 80% vs 100% charging
#4 Driving immediately after charging
#5 Charging immediately after driving
#6 miles driven
#7 others

And I also wonder how much of a factor time might have to do with it? Do batteries loose capacity simply because of time to the point where using the battery can be less important than it's age?

The passage of time seems to be a factor over which we have no control. One bar loss at around two years, regardless of usage pattern and operating environment, might be typical. If so, high miles/year drivers may experience a lower operating cost per mile than low mile/year drivers.

 

[smkettner]

The first 5 are all battery temperature related in some way.

Minimizing battery temperature should be the primary concern for long battery life.
Parking outside the garage at night could be the single best change to extend battery life IMO.

 

[twingo]

Now that I'm an official member of the 11 bar club, the issue has piqued my interest. I am not a regular participant here but do subscribe to the Google Alert system which sends me daily messages on any topics around the world related to the Leaf. And I recall an article about the guy in Washington State who went nearly 80K miles before losing his first bar and another guy in the UK who has gone 36K with regular 100% and fast-charging and hasn't lost a bar. There seems to a range of circumstances leading to capacity loss which make me wonder:

Can they be listed in order of highest-to-lowest impact, and what might that order might look like. For example

#1 Ambient temperature
#2 fast charging
#3 80% vs 100% charging
#4 Driving immediately after charging
#5 Charging immediately after driving
#6 miles driven
#7 others

And I also wonder how much of a factor time might have to do with it? Do batteries loose capacity simply because of time to the point where using the battery can be less important than it's age?

The passage of time seems to be a factor over which we have no control. One bar loss at around two years, regardless of usage pattern and operating environment, might be typical. If so, high miles/year drivers may experience a lower operating cost per mile than low mile/year drivers.

Yes, some of the factors are controllable while others are not. If time is to be counted, it would be an uncontrollable factor unless it's impact is high enough on the list which might encourage some control of it by driving more.

 

[dm33]

Now that I'm an official member of the 11 bar club, the issue has piqued my interest. I am not a regular participant here but do subscribe to the Google Alert system which sends me daily messages on any topics around the world related to the Leaf. And I recall an article about the guy in Washington State who went nearly 80K miles before losing his first bar and another guy in the UK who has gone 36K with regular 100% and fast-charging and hasn't lost a bar. There seems to a range of circumstances leading to capacity loss which make me wonder:

Can they be listed in order of highest-to-lowest impact, and what might that order might look like. For example

#1 Ambient temperature
#2 fast charging
#3 80% vs 100% charging
#4 Driving immediately after charging
#5 Charging immediately after driving
#6 miles driven
#7 others

And I also wonder how much of a factor time might have to do with it? Do batteries loose capacity simply because of time to the point where using the battery can be less important than it's age?

I didn't think driving or charging immediately after charging or driving is the issue.
The issue is how long the battery stays at full charge or very low charge.

 

[RickS]

Here's a fun picture for everyone. 8 temperature bars for the first time with parking in the shade most of the day and level 2 charging only. Ohh and its last night at 9pm! I started the day at 8:30am with 7 bars on the temperature gauge.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/35w60lqroomb4l8/2013-06-29 21.15.28.jpg

Let me know if the link doesn't work.

 

[RegGuheert]

And I also wonder how much of a factor time might have to do with it? Do batteries loose capacity simply because of time to the point where using the battery can be less important than it's age?

Yes, those are referred to as calendar losses. There are irreversible chemical reactions which occur constantly that degrade the capacity of the battery. But, like all chemical reactions, the rate of reaction varies as a function of temperature. Likely it follows the Arrhenius equation which says the rate of reaction doubles for each 10C increase in temperature. Also, some of these reactions are a function of the SOC of the battery. As a result, a battery sitting at 100F and 95% SOC may degrade 20X (or more) times a fast as one sitting at 32F and 30% SOC.

The point is that while there IS calendar aging going on, not all LEAFs will suffer from calendar aging at the same rate, depending on the climate and how the charge is managed.

Cycling losses are a separate issue and are due to the fact that the charge/discharge reactions in our batteries are not entirely reversible. Cycling losses may also be a function of temperature, but it's not clear to what degree that is so.

 

[LEAFfan]

Now that I'm an official member of the 11 bar club, the issue has piqued my interest. I am not a regular participant here but do subscribe to the Google Alert system which sends me daily messages on any topics around the world related to the Leaf. And I recall an article about the guy in Washington State who went nearly 80K miles before losing his first bar and another guy in the UK who has gone 36K with regular 100% and fast-charging and hasn't lost a bar. There seems to a range of circumstances leading to capacity loss which make me wonder:

Can they be listed in order of highest-to-lowest impact, and what might that order might look like. For example

#1 Ambient temperature
#2 fast charging
#3 80% vs 100% charging
#4 Driving immediately after charging
#5 Charging immediately after driving
#6 miles driven
#7 others

And I also wonder how much of a factor time might have to do with it? Do batteries loose capacity simply because of time to the point where using the battery can be less important than it's age?

My #1 would be: High ambient temps over time
Fast charging is definitely not #2 unless you QC more than 4-5 times a day. Leaving the car at 100% charge for more than a couple days is definitely more damaging. For #3 I believe driving high speeds for long distances is more degrading than charging to 100%. In fact, I would put charging to 100% at the bottom. I would eliminate #4 and #5 as causes.

 

[LEAFfan]

Minimizing battery temperature should be the primary concern for long battery life.
Parking outside the garage at night could be the single best change to extend battery life IMO.

That's good for climates other than the hot ones. Here, my garage at night is at least 5F cooler than outside. It would be much worse to leave it out at night.
For instance, right now it's 112F outside, but our garage is 106F.

 

[LEAFer]

Ahr=57.85 now and still no 12th bar. I guess I'm an official bar loser. I think the first in Georgia :!:

Wow.. 57.85 seems rather high to be missing a bar! Do you think the software is settling back towards your previous 55.6? Condolences...

Mine jumped from 54.85 to 59.07 pre- versus post-P3227 re-program. See table near end of the following post: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=10653&start=37" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And, no, the recently lost 12th bar did not come back ... and today it's back to 56.87Ahr.

 

[smkettner]

Minimizing battery temperature should be the primary concern for long battery life.
Parking outside the garage at night could be the single best change to extend battery life IMO.

That's good for climates other than the hot ones. Here, my garage at night is at least 5F cooler than outside. It would be much worse to leave it out at night.
For instance, right now it's 112F outside, but our garage is 106F.

You might be right if you get significant ambient cooling from being attached to the house.

I assume garage temperatures lag outdoor temps so yes in the evening you might be right. But for me the garage is about 12 degree warmer at sunrise.

So I am saying garage in the day is good as the heat lags, then outside at night as the cool down in the garage lags.

 

[cwerdna]

Well, I have 12 bars back. I cannot figure out how to attach a photo, really wish I could. My battery is still not charging to the full extent as it did just 6 weeks ago. It charged (using 100% charge) to show 85 miles available in D mode (94 miles in ECO). This could be even worse for me because if my capacity bars stay above 9 there is no special warranty. I have lost between 15 to 20 miles in range!

Do you think there is something else wrong?

Mike

I work just down the street from you (within a couple of miles), if you want a neutral 3rd party to look at it I'd be happy to pull data from your car to see if we can tell what is going on.

Did we ever get to the bottom of this? It's funny how someone claims his capacity bars were at 10, then down to 6 (!) and back to 12 (after the software update) hasn't been heard from in 15 days...

 

[TimLee]

deleted

 

[dvlax40]

Here's a fun picture for everyone. 8 temperature bars for the first time with parking in the shade most of the day and level 2 charging only. Ohh and its last night at 9pm! I started the day at 8:30am with 7 bars on the temperature gauge.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/35w60lqroomb4l8/2013-06-29 21.15.28.jpg

Let me know if the link doesn't work.

rick,

i beat you with 9 bars charging outside of a frys! lol way to hot for L2, how much did you get out of it? mine only charged 15% before it throttled the charge :/

 

[FairwoodRed]

Lost my first bar here in Seattle. 44,700 miles, 24 months ownership. I think recent high heat put me over the edge as I had 57 amp hours capacity Saturday morning and only 54 amp hours on Sunday morning. Far as I know, I'm the second to lose a bar in Washington state, and at roughly half the mileage as TaylorSFguy. He lives just a few miles from me.

When battery temps return to normal, I expect that my capacity will go up some, but I don't expect to get it all back. I'm scheduled to have my software update done this Saturday, so that will throw off any tracking of capacity due to heat.

I attempted to add myself to the wiki. Seems to have worked, but if I got it wrong, please help me fix it.

 

[LEAFer]

I think recent high heat put me over the edge as I had 57 amp hours capacity Saturday morning and only 54 amp hours on Sunday morning.

OUCH !! Unfathomable ...

When battery temps return to normal, I expect that my capacity will go up some, but I don't expect to get it all back. I'm scheduled to have my software update done this Saturday, so that will throw off any tracking of capacity due to heat.

Depending on how important this issue is to you ... if it were me, I would postpone the appointment and wait for cooler weather and see what happens to the Ah numbers before the P3227 "mucks it up" ...