Nissan LEAF Update from Andy Palmer

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ck out thread called
is carwings glitchy for you

in it, a NISSAN rep from TN, declares the company is basically lurking here all the time.
 
TonyWilliams said:
RegGuheert said:
Unfortunately they (Nissan, dealers, etc.) are still selling this as a 100-mile car with no mention of degradation. I've gone 100 miles on a single charge exactly once, and that was somewhat painful.
Click to expand...

At the San Diego Auto Show, they were happily telling everybody "100 mile average".
Click to expand...

Shameful. I've never been even close to 100 miles, but I'm not a hypermiler, either.

thankyouOB said:
ck out thread called
is carwings glitchy for you

in it, a NISSAN rep from TN, declares the company is basically lurking here all the time.
Click to expand...

I'm glad they are reading, but I just want a more proactive response. The last arbitration guy I talked with was VERY familiar with the forum. He used our aliases as if he had just had a beer with us the night before.


evnow said:
I don't think your want will be met. You have unrealistic expectations.

You expect them to tell you what they will offer you - before they have figured out whether they can do it or not. No business will do that - unless they are 100% sure they can offer you that replacement.

I don't think they can retrofit a TMS - there isn't any space for that. They are always working on different battery chemistry ...
Click to expand...

I'm not sure how it's unrealistic to ask for the problem to be fixed. If it were a faulty transmission it would not be unrealistic to ask them to correct the issue. It's a defect. It wasn't designed properly, and it's their responsibility to fix the issue.
 
TonyWilliams said:
RegGuheert said:
Unfortunately they (Nissan, dealers, etc.) are still selling this as a 100-mile car with no mention of degradation. I've gone 100 miles on a single charge exactly once, and that was somewhat painful.
Click to expand...

At the San Diego Auto Show, they were happily telling everybody "100 mile average".
Click to expand...
They were doing the same at the SF Auto Show. :roll: I posted about it http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=246184#p246184" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

I find it highly likely those reps at the auto shows don't own or lease a Leaf nor have ever attempted to go 100 miles on a charge.

Nissan needs to stop the 100 mile range messaging and perhaps needs to have those reps try to achieve 100 miles themselves before they're allowed to even make such a claim. Gotta throw in some highway driving in there to add some "fun". :lol:
 
As long as they continue with that BS, they are insuring that they will have a number of unhappy owners!

cwerdna said:
Nissan needs to stop the 100 mile range messaging and perhaps needs to have those reps try to achieve 100 miles themselves before they're allowed to even make such a claim.
Click to expand...
 
cwerdna said:
Nissan needs to stop the 100 mile range messaging and perhaps needs to have those reps try to achieve 100 miles themselves before they're allowed to even make such a claim. Gotta throw in some highway driving in there to add some "fun". :lol:
Click to expand...
I think I will make it a point now to ALWAYS ask any Nissan representative who mentions 100-mile range "Have you personally ever driven a LEAF 100 miles on a single charge?" (Perhaps I need to learn how to say that in Japanese for our upcoming Yokohama visit! :) )
 
If the batteries have a tendancy to drop to 70 percent, frankly, I think they are doing too little. When I attended the Nissan Leaf Drive event in Hillsboro Or when the Leaf was first launched, they were advertising 90 mile range with the potential to drop to 80 percent capacity in 10 years.

As it is, my brand new leaf has about 60 miles of range in the winter with a hill or two on the route.
70 percent of 60 miles would only be 36 miles. I wouldn't be able to effectively make any use of the car with that limited range.

Glad I onlty signed up for a 2 year lease, and I can walk away from the residual which is planned to be more than the car will be worth. If I can now buy a 2011 for $19K, why would I pay more than that for a 2 year old car? I can just have them take it back and buy a different car.
 
NoMoShocks said:
As it is, my brand new leaf has about 60 miles of range in the winter with a hill or two on the route.
70 percent of 60 miles would only be 36 miles. I wouldn't be able to effectively make any use of the car with that limited range.

Glad I onlty signed up for a 2 year lease, and I can walk away from the residual which is planned to be more than the car will be worth...
Click to expand...
My math says it's 42 miles.

Fortunately, you live in a very mild climate and I suspect you'd see much slower degradation than most of the rest of the US, esp. those places like Vegas, AZ and TX. But, all that is moot since you have only a 2 year lease.
 
LEAFfan said:
When the car was new, it was very easy to go 100 miles IF you just drove city streets and always stayed off the freeways.
Click to expand...
While that may be true in hot climates with flat roads, I don't think you can make that claim for every LEAF everywhere. Also consider that not everyone is as capable at hypermiling as you are. (For those that don't know, LEAFfan is the distance record holder here!)
 
TonyWilliams said:
At the San Diego Auto Show, they were happily telling everybody "100 mile average".
Click to expand...
Unbelievable. When my Leaf was new, and with my very conservative driving style, I could get 100 miles. However, not many people are willing or able to drive like I do. After 1.5 years, I strongly doubt I could get 100 miles, although it would depend on the terrain. Why is Nissan still pushing this Nissan BS (TM)? They should be telling people that about 1 person in 20 who drives very, very carefully can get 100 miles from the Leaf, and most people should expect 70-80 miles when new.
 
Just got word that another LEAFer has gone the route of gasoline. Was unable to deal with the loss of range in Winter and unwilling to drive cold. Ended up going with a Civic. paid $24,000 for it (dont know if that is before or after taxes) and first thing they did is mitigated the decision based on $3.25 gas...like that is going to last.
 
I'm interested in your thoughts about this...

Before Nissan bought back our car (thank you Nissan!), we were on track to being eligible for a battery repair/replace at about 2 years/28,000 miles. Assuming a full 100% replacement , we'd need another one at 4 years/56,000 miles. Assuming a full 100% replacement at that point, we'd get a total of 6 years, 84,000 miles with a battery with between 66% (assuming 66% is where you lose the 9th bar) and 100% capacity. That would be 84,000 miles before a required, major, customer-paid repair.

Assuming I would be guaranteed the ability to upgrade the pack with one with better, heat-resistant chemistry and more kWh at the end of that time period, this could be a good deal that might have kept me in the car. If all that is available at the end of 6 years, is the same ol' pack, no good.

Assuming an 80% restored capacity , we'd need another one at 3 years/42,000 miles, then 4 years/56,000 miles, then 5 years/70,000 miles (on our own for the last one). That's 1 year with a car that can get about 73 miles (epa) and 4 years with a car that can get 51-58 miles per 100% charge. No good.

Not to mention that blowing through this many battery modules is extremely unfriendly to the environment.
 
Hi all,

I've been going through this thread and my related notes for the last few months, and have started to assemble an outline of questions related to the hot climate/capacity issue. I'm going to pass these along to Jeff and Andy in preparation for the meeting on the 8th, so please chime in here or otherwise let me, Tony W or Phil S know if I'm missing anything. I know we won't get all of the answers by then, but it'll help in general to be more organized about what we still need to know about this issue.

Thank you!

1. Warranty
a. fine print
b. why only warranty to 70% if projections stated by Nissan were 80%?
c. 9 bars or 8 bars? Why bars at all? And if bars are meant to be just the consumer-friendly "trigger" for a more comprehensive test at the dealer, what's the process for that? How will % capacity be objectively verified?
d. what capacity will actually be restored? (i.e.,71%? variable based on age/mileage of vehicle?)
e. parameters around usage behavior that might void the warranty- e.g., QC or turtle frequency, always charging to 100%, etc.
f. possible option for a "stepped" warranty- e.g. 80% after 3 years, 70% at 5
g. extended warranty options and/or paid "exchange program" for those that need more than 70% capacity?
h. will this warranty replace buy-back option for unsatisfied owners? If so, when? Will any drivers who've gotten buyback offers already have them rescinded?[/list]

2. Capacity Bars- need common understanding of what each bar means and assurance of accuracy
a. Info on gauge fix- what/when/how?
b. Current matrix re capacity bars post-fix (e.g.- 9 bars still = 66-72%?)

3. Batteries in general
a. price (replacement, rehab, etc.)
b. future options- e.g. multiple capacity choices?
c. will future options be backwards compatible?
d. more info on degradation curves, specific effect of different driving/charging/climate factors, etc.
e. 5-yr projected capacity for AZ and other hot climate drivers at 12,500 miles/yr

4. Misc-
a. Will Nissan stop selling the LEAF in AZ or other hot climates?
b. Clarity around reporting between dealers and NNA regarding used vehicle transactions. Who can a used LEAF buyer contact to verify that NNA has current ownership info?

I've also noted the desire for a better annual battery report and "best practices" battery care, and have put those on the list for the larger advisory board to address with Nissan. And of course, different/better communication about all of these issues for new buyers and on an ongoing basis for current drivers is already on that list.
 
evchels said:
Hi all,

I've been going through this thread and my related notes for the last few months, and have started to assemble an outline of questions related to the hot climate/capacity issue. I'm going to pass these along to Jeff and Andy in preparation for the meeting on the 8th, so please chime in here or otherwise let me, Tony W or Phil S know if I'm missing anything. I know we won't get all of the answers by then, but it'll help in general to be more organized about what we still need to know about this issue.

Thank you!

1. Warranty
a. fine print
b. why only warranty to 70% if projections stated by Nissan were 80%?
c. 9 bars or 8 bars? Why bars at all? And if bars are meant to be just the consumer-friendly "trigger" for a more comprehensive test at the dealer, what's the process for that? How will % capacity be objectively verified?
d. what capacity will actually be restored? (i.e.,71%? variable based on age/mileage of vehicle?)
e. parameters around usage behavior that might void the warranty- e.g., QC or turtle frequency, always charging to 100%, etc.
f. possible option for a "stepped" warranty- e.g. 80% after 3 years, 70% at 5
g. extended warranty options and/or paid "exchange program" for those that need more than 70% capacity?
h. will this warranty replace buy-back option for unsatisfied owners? If so, when? Will any drivers who've gotten buyback offers already have them rescinded?[/list]

2. Capacity Bars- need common understanding of what each bar means and assurance of accuracy
a. Info on gauge fix- what/when/how?
b. Current matrix re capacity bars post-fix (e.g.- 9 bars still = 66-72%?)

3. Batteries in general
a. price (replacement, rehab, etc.)
b. future options- e.g. multiple capacity choices?
c. will future options be backwards compatible?
d. more info on degradation curves, specific effect of different driving/charging/climate factors, etc.
e. 5-yr projected capacity for AZ and other hot climate drivers at 12,500 miles/yr

4. Misc-
a. Will Nissan stop selling the LEAF in AZ or other hot climates?
b. Clarity around reporting between dealers and NNA regarding used vehicle transactions. Who can a used LEAF buyer contact to verify that NNA has current ownership info?

I've also noted the desire for a better annual battery report and "best practices" battery care, and have put those on the list for the larger advisory board to address with Nissan. And of course, different/better communication about all of these issues for new buyers and on an ongoing basis for current drivers is already on that list.
Click to expand...

This will be a great start if we get answers on half of this although i strongly suspect the 2013 announcement will alleviate concern in a lot of these areas.

Another thing is if pricing for replacement battery packs are still up in the air, then how about a timetable? This is not warranty work, just a purchase/exchange. I feel as if Nissan wants to have the entire information package together before they say anything at all and that is not working. Its like buying a car that has special tires on it and then telling all new owners to take it easy on them because there will be no replacement tires for 3 years.

Right now, there are people who are having to make additional sacrifices daily to to meet their basic transportation needs and without any information they feel like there is no option for them now or 6 months down the line causing them to jump ship. If I were in that boat, Nissan just saying "we have it in the works, hoping for a March 2013 launch..." is enough for me to evaluate "can I make this work for 3 more months?"

If there is a light at the end of the tunnel, no matter how long that tunnel is, that makes all the difference in the world.
 
Cheslea, thanks for correlating all the questions. If Nissan is going to stick with bars as an easy representation of capacity loss, they need to both fix the inherent inaccuracies, which even THEY have claimed exist, and IMO the software should be changed so that each bar represents the same % capacity. They can make them all represent either 7.5% if they intend to stick with their replacement only at 30% loss, or better yet 5%, which allows them to also use a 20% capacity loss. No one will ever drive the car to where the battery capacity drops down to 20% or less, so the area below that can be treated as whatever residual is left when all bars are gone - with twelve bars, either <= 10% @ using 7.5%/bar, or below 40% if using 5%.
 
GRA said:
Cheslea, thanks for correlating all the questions. If Nissan is going to stick with bars as an easy representation of capacity loss, they need to both fix the inherent inaccuracies, which even THEY have claimed exist, and IMO the software should be changed so that each bar represents the same % capacity. They can make them all represent either 7.5% if they intend to stick with their replacement only at 30% loss, or better yet 5%, which allows them to also use a 20% capacity loss. No one will ever drive the car to where the battery capacity drops down to 20% or less, so the area below that can be treated as whatever residual is left when all bars are gone - with twelve bars, either <= 10% @ using 7.5%/bar, or below 40% if using 5%.
Click to expand...

Agreed. And I know that the "fix" has always been intended, which is why I put that on the list. (2a)

FWIW, I have also heard consideration of changing (this one time only, for purposes of this warranty) the value of the bars to be more straightforward- so 70% is the top end of 9 bars, for example, and a driver would know that when the 10th bar disappears, they're at the eligible warranty threshold if not yet at the 5/60 mark. I'm not sure what's been decided, which is why we need a current (but post-gauge fix) value for each bar. (2b)
 
Another thing to add; Carwings. Is their any planned enhancements that is possible

I would love to see alerts for low SOC during extended vacation times, additional queries that can be initiated by text like 12 volt battery health reports?(since that seems to be popping up quite frequently here lately)

charger starts/stops
other settable SOC targets?

90% in increments of 10% down to 50% would be awesome
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
Another thing to add; Carwings. Is their any planned enhancements that is possible

I would love to see alerts for low SOC during extended vacation times, additional queries that can be initiated by text like 12 volt battery health reports?(since that seems to be popping up quite frequently here lately)

charger starts/stops
other settable SOC targets?

90% in increments of 10% down to 50% would be awesome
Click to expand...

Thanks, Dave- I've noted that as part of our larger adv group homework. :)
 
cwerdna said:
NoMoShocks said:
As it is, my brand new leaf has about 60 miles of range in the winter with a hill or two on the route.
70 percent of 60 miles would only be 36 miles. I wouldn't be able to effectively make any use of the car with that limited range.

Glad I onlty signed up for a 2 year lease, and I can walk away from the residual which is planned to be more than the car will be worth...
Click to expand...
My math says it's 42 miles.
Click to expand...

Your correct, 42 miles, but still not enough range for an ALL Electric. For ne, the winter 60 miles with hills and keeping the windows defrosted and me not shivering is the bare minimum. My one way commute is 32 miles. I can plug in at work, but then if I run just one errand on the way home that is slightly out of the way, I get home with only 6 or less miles to spare.

At least I got two out of three mathmatical operations right:
1. 10 percent of 60 = 6 is correct.
2. 3 x 6 = 24, WRONG!
3. 60 - 24 = 36, correct.

Probably the same menal issue that caused me not to pass the PE exam.
 
evchels said:
Hi all,

I've been going through this thread and my related notes for the last few months, and have started to assemble an outline of questions related to the hot climate/capacity issue. I'm going to pass these along to Jeff and Andy in preparation for the meeting on the 8th, so please chime in here or otherwise let me, Tony W or Phil S know if I'm missing anything. I know we won't get all of the answers by then, but it'll help in general to be more organized about what we still need to know about this issue.

Thank you!

1. Warranty
a. fine print
b. why only warranty to 70% if projections stated by Nissan were 80%?
c. 9 bars or 8 bars? Why bars at all? And if bars are meant to be just the consumer-friendly "trigger" for a more comprehensive test at the dealer, what's the process for that? How will % capacity be objectively verified?
d. what capacity will actually be restored? (i.e.,71%? variable based on age/mileage of vehicle?)
e. parameters around usage behavior that might void the warranty- e.g., QC or turtle frequency, always charging to 100%, etc.
f. possible option for a "stepped" warranty- e.g. 80% after 3 years, 70% at 5
g. extended warranty options and/or paid "exchange program" for those that need more than 70% capacity?
h. will this warranty replace buy-back option for unsatisfied owners? If so, when? Will any drivers who've gotten buyback offers already have them rescinded?[/list]
Click to expand...
evchels,
Thank You for taking the time to compile this list and pushing these questions to Nissan.

I think that now matter how many ways you slice and dice the warranty wording some people are not going to be satisfied.

This problem could be reduced substantially if Nissan were to convert these 2011 and 2012 cars into new leases on 2013's. With a 2 year lease the burden of battery longevity shifts from the owner (Leaser) to Nissan. I have talked to many owners that say "Love the car, just wish I had leased instead of purchased". The trade in allowance should also be generous to the customer. This would show Nissan has some loyalty to all the early adopters out there. It would also generate the best advertising money can buy and that is word of mouth by satisfied customers.
 

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