Nissan LEAF Update from Andy Palmer

[JRP3]

A TMS might have a limited effect. Tesla gets away with it because they have a large pack and can give up some energy to keep the pack cool when not plugged in without using a large portion of range. The Volt has a generator so range loss is not an issue. Do that with the LEAF pack and you might take a significant range hit trying to keep the pack cool during the day. I do think there would be a benefit to cooling the pack down at night when charging. Plus allowing preheating the pack in cold climates. Maybe for the LEAF the TMS would be active only when plugged in.

 

[TickTock]

6. The question is what will reasonably give affected owners the same kind of battery capacity performance that unaffected owners enjoy?

While I would have loved for an 80% warranty and you can argue they should honor what they said (for existing owners at least), I don't think it is reasonable to expect Nissan or any auto manufacturer to normalize everyone's ownership experience. Do we ask automobile manufacturers to warranty body panel rust such that northerners can experience the same body life as folks in warm, dry climates? I know this isn't the best analogy since the rust phenomenon doesn't happen as rapidly but it helps illustrate the point. If you live in a cold climate you can think of longer battery life as your come-uppance for reduced range in the winter (and for just enduring the winters in general ). As long as Nissan is up-front about the realistic degradation you can expect (put a degradation calculator like Stoaty's on their web site - or at a minimum the chart they showed me) and have a reasonable warranty to guarantee it, they have done their part. I think this (70%/5yds) is [barely] reasonable. As battery technology continues to improve, maybe we'll start seeing better warranty's as this will now be a key deciding factor on which EV you buy.

Also, TMS is not the panacea a lot of you think it is. (please make any responses to this in the other thread ... off topic here)

 

[thankyouOB]

6. The question is what will reasonably give affected owners the same kind of battery capacity performance that unaffected owners enjoy?
7. The answer is an 80% warranty in 5 years and 70% in 10 years, because Nissan has said that this is the kind of battery capacity performance unaffected owners should enjoy.

Except that the owners in Seattle may hit 80% at the end of 10 years, resulting in reduced range for the last couple of years, while an AZ owner will be dealing with reduced range for 9 of the 10 years.

A warranty will make your car more usable, but it won't give AZ owners "the same kind of battery capacity performance that unaffected owners enjoy." I think a battery TMS is the only thing that will level that playing field. And even then, if it becomes a future option, AZ owners will end up paying more for a Leaf to get basically the same capacity performance as those owners lucky enough to live in climatic conditions that are equivalent to EV Paradise.

this is just silly. you live where you live and take the - and + that go with that.
that applies to cars, cost or necessity of house ac, snow mobile utility yearround, the availability of fresh fruit. what are you thinking?t

 

[Stoaty]

Do we ask automobile manufacturers to warranty body panel rust such that northerners can experience the same body life as folks in warm, dry climates?

As long as Nissan is up-front about the realistic degradation you can expect (put a degradation calculator like Stoaty's on their web site - or at a minimum the chart they showed me) and have a reasonable warranty to guarantee it, they have done their part.

The key difference between the body panel rust problem and the degradation issue is that the rust issue is commonly known throughout the population so no disclosure is necessary. Nissan is still far below the minimum on proper disclosure of effects of climate on battery life. I think this is their biggest (and continuing) failure, and needs to be remedied ASAP to keep from creating more dissatisfied customers.

"When you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is to stop digging."

 

[LEAFfan]

v. How does an independant mechanic or a knowledgeable end user verify the health of the battery?

Borrow or buy a Gid battery capacity meter. Despite what some people may say, it can tell a new battery from a degraded one. My BCM will show 80-81% when a capacity bar disappears. Nissan says that's 85%. A brand new battery will show 100% (mine did), or at least 98-99% on one of these meters. Even if the bars are reset, it will still show degradation.

 

[Herm]

A TMS might have a limited effect. Do that with the LEAF pack and you might take a significant range hit trying to keep the pack cool during the day. I do think there would be a benefit to cooling the pack down at night when charging. Plus allowing preheating the pack in cold climates. Maybe for the LEAF the TMS would be active only when plugged in.

It would also help with multiple fast DC charges in one day.. but that has to be a rare event since the Leaf is just a commuter car.. A big advantage of a TMS (if Nissan does it like GM) will be that it will discharge the battery down to 60% if left unplugged at high temperatures on a parking lot.. apparently battery degradation even in Phoenix is moderated if the battery is kept no higher than 60% charge when its hot. Obviously it would help to keep the battery cool indefinitely while plugged in.

 

[Stoaty]

A big advantage of a TMS (if Nissan does it like GM) will be that it will discharge the battery down to 60% if left unplugged at high temperatures on a parking lot.. apparently battery degradation even in Phoenix is moderated if the battery is kept no higher than 60% charge when its hot.

Reference (and not just to general principles of Lithium ion chemistry)?

 

[myleaf]

This is Jeff from Nissan ... again.

Q. What is the status of the class-action lawsuit against Nissan related to battery capacity issues?
A. The lawsuit has been settled as part of our effort to address customer concerns including those expressed by the two customers who filed the class-action lawsuit.

I am not familiar on the workings of class action lawsuits. I was wondering if all Leaf owners will be able to obtain the same settlement as the two customers who filed the lawsuits. Hopefully someone knowledgeable on class action lawsuits can comment.

 

[JPWhite]

The Volt has a generator so range loss is not an issue.

Not sure the Volt can take advantage. For example if the vehicle is sitting in an enclosed space, like a garage, you don't want an ICE running simply to keep the battery cool. CO would be an issue.

 

[JPWhite]

I think a battery TMS is the only thing that will level that playing field.

Not necessarily--Nissan could also come out with a different battery chemistry that is not significantly affected by temperatures up to those encountered in Phoenix. That is probably the end solution, although who knows how many years until that is available.

I agree that a more durable battery chemistry is the end game here. TMS is is necessary because the current chemistries can't stand the heat. Nissan thought they had already arrived at that place, 2012 and Pheonix put an end to that mirage.

 

[mkjayakumar]

The good:
Nissan is atleast trying to do something to address the issue, when in fact they could have simply closed shop and ran away, given that Leaf's success or failure will hardly make a dent in their bottom line for another decade or two. So kudos to them for sticking it out, and still being in the EV game and trying to address the issue.

The bad:
I have read all of the replies here but there are two things that concern me:

1. What is the point in restoring approx. 2kWh of capacity from 8 bars to 9 bars? Once restored to 9 bars, it is guaranteed to lose the 9th bar within a month or two. Does that mean the owner will be visiting the dealer every two months and Nissan will be fixing it over and over again, till 5 years ?

2. In the QA section from Andy Palmer, the following statement requires scrutiny:

although remember that the rate of capacity loss is non-linear and decreases over time.

I do NOT believe this is true. When the capacity is reduced, the number of times the battery getting charged to full is much more, than when it had the full capacity when new, only because now with the reduced capacity of 70% only a full charge will get you where you want to go, something that you could have done with 80% charge when the battery was new. This means two things:

- the car will sit at a high SOC for longer periods, as capacity degrades
- the capacity loss will only accelerate over time. 70 to 40% will happen much quicker than 100 to 70%

 

[TomT]

Both are excellent points. I know that I am charging slightly more often than I used to, and to 100% on slightly greater occasion that I used to, due to lost range due to lost battery capacity...

I do NOT believe this is true. When the capacity is reduced, the number of times the battery getting charged to full is much more, than when it had the full capacity when new, only because now with the reduced capacity of 70% only a full charge will get you where you want to go, something that you could have done with 80% charge when the battery was new. This means two things:

- the car will sit at a high SOC for longer periods, as capacity degrades
- the capacity loss will only accelerate over time. 70 to 40% will happen much quicker than 100 to 70%

 

[tomsax]

Tesla gets away with it because they have a large pack and can give up some energy to keep the pack cool when not plugged in without using a large portion of range.

What's bad for the batteries is pulling or pushing current when they are hot, it's less of an issue for the batteries to be resting hot, until you get into really high temperatures.

For the most part, the Roadster TMS only runs when the car is on or plugged in.

After a hot drive, it will run the TMS for a short period of time, a few minutes. After a full 100% charge, it may run the circulating pump for even a couple of hours, but not the fans or A/C (at least not in the Seattle climate).

 

[JRP3]

The Volt has a generator so range loss is not an issue.

Not sure the Volt can take advantage. For example if the vehicle is sitting in an enclosed space, like a garage, you don't want an ICE running simply to keep the battery cool. CO would be an issue.

I didn't mean the ICE would come on when parked, I just meant that if the car used some of the battery pack capacity to adjust cell temps the loss of range wouldn't matter since you have the ICE backup.

 

[Twiggy]

Nicely done Nissan. Even if 99.9% of the customers never need it, at least we have the peace of mind that the warranty is there.

The LEAF is a great car. Keep up the good work.

 

[JRP3]

Tesla gets away with it because they have a large pack and can give up some energy to keep the pack cool when not plugged in without using a large portion of range.

What's bad for the batteries is pulling or pushing current when they are hot, it's less of an issue for the batteries to be resting hot, until you get into really high temperatures.

Which is exactly what they have in AZ. I think a Roadster or S in AZ would be working the TMS a lot more.

 

[planet4ever]

1. What is the point in restoring approx. 2kWh of capacity from 8 bars to 9 bars? Once restored to 9 bars, it is guaranteed to lose the 9th bar within a month or two. Does that mean the owner will be visiting the dealer every two months and Nissan will be fixing it over and over again, till 5 years ?

I'm not sure why you insist on misreading what Andy Palmer said.

Nissan will repair or replace the battery under warranty with a new or remanufactured battery to restore capacity at or above a minimum of nine bars.

[color highlight added] As your own statement suggests, it would be insanely expensive for Nissan to replace your battery every two months, so nine times out of ten they are not going to give you a nine-bar replacement.

OK, that does leave one special case: If you are very close to end of warranty, they might do that to you. But I'm guessing that most everyone else will get a remanufactured battery with 11 or 12 bars.

Ray

 

[JPWhite]

OK, that does leave one special case: If you are very close to end of warranty, they might do that to you. But I'm guessing that most everyone else will get a remanufactured battery with 11 or 12 bars.

Ray

I agree, Nissan won't cut their nose off to spite their face. They will install a refresh pack that will meet the needs of the customer until passed when the warranty period is up. If that's next week, you'll maybe get a weak pack, if it's not for another 2 1/2 years then you'll get a 100% pack. They don't want the repeat labor cost of switching batteries. Nissan are not better place and the LEAF isn't a Fluence.

 

[GeekEV]

+1 to planet4ever

 

[LEAFfan]

1. What is the point in restoring approx. 2kWh of capacity from 8 bars to 9 bars? Once restored to 9 bars, it is guaranteed to lose the 9th bar within a month or two. Does that mean the owner will be visiting the dealer every two months and Nissan will be fixing it over and over again, till 5 years ?

I'm not sure why you insist on misreading what Andy Palmer said.

Nissan will repair or replace the battery under warranty with a new or remanufactured battery to restore capacity at or above a minimum of nine bars.

[color highlight added] As your own statement suggests, it would be insanely expensive for Nissan to replace your battery every two months, so nine times out of ten they are not going to give you a nine-bar replacement.

OK, that does leave one special case: If you are very close to end of warranty, they might do thatto you. But I'm guessing that most everyone else will get a remanufactured battery with 11 or 12 bars.

Ray

+1