Collecting data:Off-the-wall power for turtle to 100% charge

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DaveinOlyWA said:
drees said:
So it seems that when collecting data - it seems that it's important to try to make sure that the pack is really full and balanced as I'd guess at least a 1kWh difference could show up unless you charge to 100% frequently.
i see a 10-12 GID variance on a full charge. part of it is probably temperature dependent although that "fact" is hardly a done deal but i charged fully today for first time in over a week and got 266. my pack "should" be around 275
Well, 10 GID = 0.8 kWh so seeing up to 1 kWh difference from the wall would match expectations there.

TickTock said:
Thanks for all the inputs, I decided to put them all in a spreadsheet so I could easily normalize all the datapoints (last column):
Thanks for organizing the data. Would be interesting to have an approximate odometer reading at the time of measurement as well.
 
GroundLoop said:
I download the data straight from SDG&E's meter, and find the Blink to be understating the consumed power (during charge) by about 1.5%

ECOtality removed the one "dashboard" tile that was most useful from their web site dashboard -- it had the Blink-reported power out to the milliwatt (literally). Since then, I've stopped using the Blink reporting and just ask the meter how much power was consumed. After all, this is what my bill will reflect.

I've run the car down to turtle, then parked it with the heater on, then left it on with the fans running for hours. The lowest SOC reading I could get was "3". :)

i guess its my mistrust of big business rearing its ugly head here but wouldnt surprise me to find out Blink is correct and your utility is taking the measurement farther up the line with additional line losses added.
 
TickTock said:
Thanks for all the inputs, I decided to put them all in a spreadsheet so I could easily normalize all the datapoints (last column):

Leaf Capacity Variation

I wasn't sure about the date of Waidy's last datapoint (put in a guess of 6/6/2012) and GerryAZ's datapoint (he said this was when the car was new so I put a guess of 0 days).

Tick Tock,
I have been trying to compile my shutdown-to-100% charges into a meaningful spreadsheet to get a better picture of my battery capacity status. I have multiple data points, but have been trying to make sure the data is accurate before I send it to you. Unfortunately, my data recording became more thorough as time went on so the early events have some margin of error and I want to make sure I can support the data I send. For now, please replace the two data points you have from me with data points which I know are correct:
10/15/2011 4298 miles 22.54 kWh CW 13.7 kWh
12/08/2011 6301 miles 23.48 kWh CW 15.8 kWh
6/23/2012 11536 miles 20.35 kWh CW 14.0 kWh
6/30/2012 11728 miles 21.28 kWh CW 14.5 kWh (first capacity bar was lost at 11731 miles on 7/1/2012)
7/27/2012 13163 miles 20.97 kWh CW 14.3 kWh
As you can see, there is some variation in the numbers. I had all 12 capacity bars on the morning of 7/1/2012 before driving 3 miles to a restaurant for breakfast. I had 12 bars (both SOC and capacity) when I turned it off and 12 SOC bars with 11 capacity bars when I turned it back on an hour or so later. For what it is worth, CarWings energy use for my first charge from shutdown on 6/23/2011 at 396 miles was 15.8 kWh which matches the 12/8/2011 charge.

Incidentally, the car's instrumentation became erratic after losing the first capacity bar. SOC bars sometimes disappear quickly and other times are more like they used to be. The GOM (Nissan calls it the DTE meter) is all over the place--much worse than it was before losing the capacity bar. The first low battery warning (LBW) consistently comes sooner than it did before, but the range between LBW and the very low battery warning (VLBW) has increased significantly and the distance from VLBW to Turtle has also increased about the same amount as the increase between LBW and VLBW. The net effect is that the range is about the same as before the loss of the capacity bar, but much more of the mileage is after LBW.

Edited to add: I lost the second capacity bar at 13834 miles on 8/8/2012 (just before going on vacation), but I have not noted any additional changes to the instrumentation or loss of actual driving range.

Thanks,
Gerry
 
GerryAZ said:
The first low battery warning (LBW) consistently comes sooner than it did before,
What is your GID reading at Low Battery Warning ?

My car is always 49 or 50.
 
KJD said:
GerryAZ said:
The first low battery warning (LBW) consistently comes sooner than it did before,
What is your GID reading at Low Battery Warning ?

My car is always 49 or 50.

I don't have a Gid meter so I do not know. I have been thinking of ordering a kit from Gary, but I keep procrastinating. On the other hand, I don't know if Gid readings would mean much since my car's battery instrumentation has become so erratic.

Gerry
 
TickTock said:
Thanks Gerry,
I updated the spreadsheet with your data. What are you using the measure the energy from the wall?

I started by using my Fluke 289 mulitmeter (which can be set up for unattended data recording) with Fluke i400 clamp-on current probe set to take a current reading every 5 or 10 seconds so I could see how much the current varied throughout the charge cycle. Unfortunately, I misunderstood how to save the data in the meter before transferring it to a PC. I lost some recordings because I learned the hard way that you must save the data to nonvolatile memory before turning off the meter. I measured voltage with a Fluke T5-1000 meter a few times during each charge event to make sure it was stable. I found that the charging current is steady until it tapers during the last few minutes (on my car which is always charged to 100%). With a 30-ampere EVSE like the Aerovironment (which I have) or Blink, the input power is very consistent (all the way down to less than 208 volts) because the Leaf's internal charger will draw more current at lower voltage (and less current at higher voltage) to compensate. Therefore, I decided I could keep track of charging power by recording L2 charging time. I lost some charging data when CarWings failed to send charging complete emails a few times. Measurements using my Fluke 289 meter with i400 clamp-on current probe and T5-1000 are consistently very close to 3.756 kVA which is 3.756 kW at unity power factor or 3.756 kWh for each hour of charging. For an easy way to record charging power every day, I eventually purchased an EKM Metering model EKM-25IDS meter which seems to be accurate. Any meters used to measure the AC input power to the Leaf charger must be True RMS instruments to get accurate readings because the current waveform of the charging power input has some distortion from the switching power supply.

Gerry
 
Gerry, that's great information/data you've collected, especially regarding how the DTE indicator has gone wonky after losing a capacity bar. I've posted a quote of your statement which is relevant to the capacity loss thread.

Do you have any idea how much more range is available from LBW to dead after losing a bar or how much sooner it comes on?

It does look like there's a downward trend in the wall charge data - but it's curious that even just at 4 months/4,000 miles your car seems to take much less energy than other cars.
 
Sorry to keep bugging you but can you estimate about when you switched to the EKM meter? Was it before the 6/2012 measurement?
GerryAZ said:
TickTock said:
Thanks Gerry,
I updated the spreadsheet with your data. What are you using the measure the energy from the wall?

I started by using my Fluke 289 mulitmeter (which can be set up for unattended data recording) with Fluke i400 clamp-on current probe set to take a current reading every 5 or 10 seconds so I could see how much the current varied throughout the charge cycle. Unfortunately, I misunderstood how to save the data in the meter before transferring it to a PC. I lost some recordings because I learned the hard way that you must save the data to nonvolatile memory before turning off the meter. I measured voltage with a Fluke T5-1000 meter a few times during each charge event to make sure it was stable. I found that the charging current is steady until it tapers during the last few minutes (on my car which is always charged to 100%). With a 30-ampere EVSE like the Aerovironment (which I have) or Blink, the input power is very consistent (all the way down to less than 208 volts) because the Leaf's internal charger will draw more current at lower voltage (and less current at higher voltage) to compensate. Therefore, I decided I could keep track of charging power by recording L2 charging time. I lost some charging data when CarWings failed to send charging complete emails a few times. Measurements using my Fluke 289 meter with i400 clamp-on current probe and T5-1000 are consistently very close to 3.756 kVA which is 3.756 kW at unity power factor or 3.756 kWh for each hour of charging. For an easy way to record charging power every day, I eventually purchased an EKM Metering model EKM-25IDS meter which seems to be accurate. Any meters used to measure the AC input power to the Leaf charger must be True RMS instruments to get accurate readings because the current waveform of the charging power input has some distortion from the switching power supply.

Gerry
 
GerryAZ said:
TickTock said:
Thanks Gerry,
I updated the spreadsheet with your data. What are you using the measure the energy from the wall?

I started by using my Fluke 289 mulitmeter (which can be set up for unattended data recording) with Fluke i400 clamp-on current probe set to take a current reading every 5 or 10 seconds so I could see how much the current varied throughout the charge cycle. Unfortunately, I misunderstood how to save the data in the meter before transferring it to a PC. I lost some recordings because I learned the hard way that you must save the data to nonvolatile memory before turning off the meter. I measured voltage with a Fluke T5-1000 meter a few times during each charge event to make sure it was stable. I found that the charging current is steady until it tapers during the last few minutes (on my car which is always charged to 100%). With a 30-ampere EVSE like the Aerovironment (which I have) or Blink, the input power is very consistent (all the way down to less than 208 volts) because the Leaf's internal charger will draw more current at lower voltage (and less current at higher voltage) to compensate. Therefore, I decided I could keep track of charging power by recording L2 charging time. I lost some charging data when CarWings failed to send charging complete emails a few times. Measurements using my Fluke 289 meter with i400 clamp-on current probe and T5-1000 are consistently very close to 3.756 kVA which is 3.756 kW at unity power factor or 3.756 kWh for each hour of charging. For an easy way to record charging power every day, I eventually purchased an EKM Metering model EKM-25IDS meter which seems to be accurate. Any meters used to measure the AC input power to the Leaf charger must be True RMS instruments to get accurate readings because the current waveform of the charging power input has some distortion from the switching power supply.

Gerry

i was under the impression the taper down part of a full charge cycle was more in the line of 20-30 minutes? so you are saying its actually much shorter?
 
The Leaf's OBC usually begins to start tapering at around 80% true SoC. For a full charge, It does not function as Gerry states, it definitely tapers down. But for an 80% charge it will behave as he indicated.

-Phil
 
Not quite sure how this all calculates out, but I'm adding my data to the mix. Brought my car down to Turtle for the first time yesterday. Used L1 (trickle) EVSEUpgraded charger to recharge. Measured with Kill-A-Watt EZ model 4460.

Turtle to 80% = 20.64 kWh
Turtle to 100% = 25.81 kWh

My car is 11 months old and I've got 1907 miles on it. Edit: Garage was 80 degrees during charging. Total charge time 20:05.
 
vrwl said:
My car is 11 months old and I've got 1907 miles on it. Edit: Garage was 80 degrees during charging. Total charge time 20:05.
So you bought it used? (sig says you took delivery in 6/26/2012) and 1907 miles is pretty low number for 11 months. Be interesting to know what the car was doing all that time :)

Adding this to the spreadsheet - just checking to make sure there wasn't a typo in there...
 
TickTock said:
vrwl said:
My car is 11 months old and I've got 1907 miles on it. Edit: Garage was 80 degrees during charging. Total charge time 20:05.
So you bought it used? (sig says you took delivery in 6/26/2012) and 1907 miles is pretty low number for 11 months. Be interesting to know what the car was doing all that time :)

Adding this to the spreadsheet - just checking to make sure there wasn't a typo in there...

TickTock, if you'll click on the link in my sig (the link that says "Bought 6/26/12, Pre-Owned with 89 miles"), you'll see the whole story of my car as far as I know it. :) But yes, I bought it used with 89 miles on it.
 
Thanks - very interesting datapoint indeed. Looks like time is more a factor then miles/charge cycles since oyu are hanging right in there with all the other 1 year owners with >15000 miles.
 
TickTock said:
Thanks - very interesting datapoint indeed. Looks like time is more a factor then miles/charge cycles since oyu are hanging right in there with all the other 1 year owners with >15000 miles.

Yes, sadly, I was thinking the same thing.
 
Ingineer said:
The Leaf's OBC usually begins to start tapering at around 80% true SoC. For a full charge, It does not function as Gerry states, it definitely tapers down. But for an 80% charge it will behave as he indicated.

-Phil

I only have data for my car, but the current from the wall holds steady until the last few minutes (less than 10 minutes of tapering charge). Perhaps cars that are not routinely cycled through the full SOC range and charged to 100% do taper the charging power above 80% SOC for cell balancing. I will try to post some of my charging current recordings this weekend after the range test to show what is typical for my Leaf.

Keep in mind that L2 charging with the 3.3 kW charger is really not much more than a trickle charge for the 24 kWh pack so there is not much need to taper the charge rate except for balancing.

Gerry
 
GerryAZ said:
Ingineer said:
The Leaf's OBC usually begins to start tapering at around 80% true SoC. For a full charge, It does not function as Gerry states, it definitely tapers down. But for an 80% charge it will behave as he indicated.

-Phil

I only have data for my car, but the current from the wall holds steady until the last few minutes (less than 10 minutes of tapering charge). Perhaps cars that are not routinely cycled through the full SOC range and charged to 100% do taper the charging power above 80% SOC for cell balancing. I will try to post some of my charging current recordings this weekend after the range test to show what is typical for my Leaf.

Keep in mind that L2 charging with the 3.3 kW charger is really not much more than a trickle charge for the 24 kWh pack so there is not much need to taper the charge rate except for balancing.

Gerry

ok and that current is? 16 amps? i have never seen any pack charging at any speed that acts the way you state. provide some numbers or direct me to an earlier post that i have missed
 
Mine took 25 kWh last time I fully killed (and pushed into the parking space) my LEAF, and charged from the wall. Since it's L1 and I didn't have authorization from the apartment management yet to run the cable, I broke it into two overnight sessions. I drove a bit the second day but got an equal charge from the L2 station at the dealership, came home with the same SOC I left with (but wasn't really concentrating on monitoring it as I would if I were doing it for this thread).

I got a VLB warning on my "100-mile club" trek back home last night, though, but since I had an appointment for a firmware update at Nissan this morning, they charged it at their service-area charging station to 100% while I slept in.

So, between the two sessions, my Kill-A-Watt meter showed 25 kWh between those two sessions. I just remember seeing that on the meter and thinking "geez, for a 24 kWh battery, that's pretty good efficiency!" ;)
 
FalconFour said:
Mine took 25 kWh last time I fully killed (and pushed into the parking space) my LEAF, and charged from the wall.
...
So, between the two sessions, my Kill-A-Watt meter showed 25 kWh between those two sessions. I just remember seeing that on the meter and thinking "geez, for a 24 kWh battery, that's pretty good efficiency!" ;)
I believe that RegGuheert measured 27.17 kWh from VLB to full on L1. Although we don't have as many data points to compare against as we have for level 2 charging, this would seem to confirm more than 8% reduction in usable battery capacity.
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