TonyWilliams
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ericsf said:
Yes, that is the design. There is only one charger with two nozzles.
San Francisco Bay Area Quick Chargers Getting them sooner
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Yes, that is the design. There is only one charger with two nozzles.
ElectricVehicle
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The 350Green Stanford Mall DC Quick Charger is operational!! I used it this morning to charge from 5 bars, 37 mile range to 10 bars, 83 miles range in about 25 minutes.
You must have a CharJit card from http://350green.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; .
It's $7 per 30 minute quick charge session, the initial card comes loaded with 3 sessions for $21.
Make sure you have the car turned off before connecting to the Quick Charger. Once you connect the car and press the Start button, the card is debited for a Quick Charge session. Double check that the car is off before connecting, you don't want to lose a Quick Charge sesssion if the charge doesn't start because the car is on. Or something like that, at any rate, I used up the sessions in my card without managing to charge, but then I called the support number on the charger and they immediately refilled my card and help me get the charge started.
If you use this sequence, you should be ok:
1. Turn your car off.
2. Touch card to the black area between the Start and Stop buttons.
3. Follow the instructions on the display. (It instructs you to press start, then connect the car, then press start again. At this point the card is debited. At least, that's what I think I remember!)
You must have a CharJit card from http://350green.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; .
It's $7 per 30 minute quick charge session, the initial card comes loaded with 3 sessions for $21.
Make sure you have the car turned off before connecting to the Quick Charger. Once you connect the car and press the Start button, the card is debited for a Quick Charge session. Double check that the car is off before connecting, you don't want to lose a Quick Charge sesssion if the charge doesn't start because the car is on. Or something like that, at any rate, I used up the sessions in my card without managing to charge, but then I called the support number on the charger and they immediately refilled my card and help me get the charge started.
If you use this sequence, you should be ok:
1. Turn your car off.
2. Touch card to the black area between the Start and Stop buttons.
3. Follow the instructions on the display. (It instructs you to press start, then connect the car, then press start again. At this point the card is debited. At least, that's what I think I remember!)
ElectricVehicle
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ElectricVehicle
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ElectricVehicle
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Nubo
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How is it possible that a bunch of bright people developed this device designed for rapid charging, but didn't think it important to give a visual indication of charge progress?
People wonder how Apple became so successful. Because they understood that the user matters!
JeremyW
Well-known member
I'm up here in the SF area for a few days on business, and I stopped by today to take some pictures and check out the *4th* public QC in California. :lol: 
Only 47kWh so far! Anyone have an idea what the demand charge is for Palo Alto?
There's a lack of signage directing people to this QC. The signs currently direct people to the two chargepoints. This QC is located on the opposite side. I'm sure they'll put in some signage soon.
Here's a map too:
Jeremy
Only 47kWh so far! Anyone have an idea what the demand charge is for Palo Alto?
There's a lack of signage directing people to this QC. The signs currently direct people to the two chargepoints. This QC is located on the opposite side. I'm sure they'll put in some signage soon.
Here's a map too:
Jeremy
ElectricVehicle
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This charging site is still being improved. Signage is coming. Cordial feedback to 350Green via their suipport phone number and email is being evaluated and acted on. I know they have made changes based on issues or suggestions myself and others have sent in to them. Let the mall know you appreciate the quick charger. Let 350Green know, politely, about any issues you run into or suggestions for improvements.
The 47 kWh is from the end of my last charge, yesterday. As people get there CharJit cards, we should see some more usage.
Interesting also is the other reading on this meter for what appears to be the peak kW, which was 28.8 kW. I couldn't see my charging rate on the charger or anywhere else, so I expected the 28.8 kW to go up as presumably I would draw more than that for more than 15 minutes. But it didn't move from 28.8 kW, and I don't know if I drew more thant that for 15 minutes. More on demand charge in next post.
In the sense of Publicly Available, full power 50 kW Quick Charger, this IS the first one, though honestly I really care less if it's first or not.
PG&E Vacaville was only sporadically available for press events and by prior arrangement with certain people at PG&E. No way would a new EV driver no how to do that without research and the help of other EV drivers. Not public.
Mitsubishi - it's nice they let the public use it, but it's really there demonstration charger and not available on weekends. Very kind of Mitsubishi, but it's primary purpose is not an any time any person Quick Charger.
San Bernadino - Has been intermittently available at reduced power. So maybe it gets first, but the commitment wasn't their to keep it publicly availble when the power bill came in. That will be addressed, but for a public charger, it shouldn't go offline when the first bill comes. So maybe it's first, maybe it's not. It was also a reduced power QC at 40 kW. Mind you, when it comes back up, fantastic! I'm behind any Quick Charger that is up, available and the public can rely on going there to get a charge.
Stanford Mall - there have been various attempts at QCs in CA that have yet to be 24x7 accessible to the public at full 50 kW power. But people have QC'd in CA prior tothe Stanfrod Mall QC. We only received the first card a few days ago. So far it has done 7 QC sessions. I don't know if the previous 6 were by the public or sessions that resulted from testing during the installation. We don't know who did the previous 6 QC sessions at the moment. I may, or may not, have been the first paying public user of this station. So it's really only been up and used for a couple days. To solidly claim it's place in QC history, we'll want to see this site operating reliable for several months, in contrast to the ill-fated Vacaville QC. In my references to this charger, if I say first, I qualify it with publicly available and full power (or 50kW) or Northern CA. The press release for this charger is already out, which claimed first and the San Bernadino charger had a low public profile, at least in N. CA. Had that been known the claim probably would have been different. I think everyone knows there were QC's in CA in various states of operation prior to this one. The "First Publicly Available" claim is a tricky one that several have been tripped up by, despite best intentions or inspired by marketing hyperbole. For me, bottom line, where are the QC stations, I can count on charging at today, and more importantly, tomorrow when I need a charge! So hat's off to everyone who has made a Quick Charge station in CA, be that a current one, or a demo / research one that are all important steps on the road to having 100's of quick chargers deployed in CA! The U.S.! The World Bwa-ha-ha-ha!
Quick Chargers are of limited utility if you can't count on them or another a couple miles away to be operational when you need a charge, preferrable 24x7, but minimally 7am - 1am, 7 days a week - nah, it needs to be 24x7 or it's a restricted or limted public charger because it's not available to the public all the time.
Some day, we'll all laugh about it, when we have 200+ QC's in CA, and someone asks - who was first? Who cares when we all have a QC near us and along the routes we want to travel in our EVs!
The 47 kWh is from the end of my last charge, yesterday. As people get there CharJit cards, we should see some more usage.
Interesting also is the other reading on this meter for what appears to be the peak kW, which was 28.8 kW. I couldn't see my charging rate on the charger or anywhere else, so I expected the 28.8 kW to go up as presumably I would draw more than that for more than 15 minutes. But it didn't move from 28.8 kW, and I don't know if I drew more thant that for 15 minutes. More on demand charge in next post.
In the sense of Publicly Available, full power 50 kW Quick Charger, this IS the first one, though honestly I really care less if it's first or not.
PG&E Vacaville was only sporadically available for press events and by prior arrangement with certain people at PG&E. No way would a new EV driver no how to do that without research and the help of other EV drivers. Not public.
Mitsubishi - it's nice they let the public use it, but it's really there demonstration charger and not available on weekends. Very kind of Mitsubishi, but it's primary purpose is not an any time any person Quick Charger.
San Bernadino - Has been intermittently available at reduced power. So maybe it gets first, but the commitment wasn't their to keep it publicly availble when the power bill came in. That will be addressed, but for a public charger, it shouldn't go offline when the first bill comes. So maybe it's first, maybe it's not. It was also a reduced power QC at 40 kW. Mind you, when it comes back up, fantastic! I'm behind any Quick Charger that is up, available and the public can rely on going there to get a charge.
Stanford Mall - there have been various attempts at QCs in CA that have yet to be 24x7 accessible to the public at full 50 kW power. But people have QC'd in CA prior tothe Stanfrod Mall QC. We only received the first card a few days ago. So far it has done 7 QC sessions. I don't know if the previous 6 were by the public or sessions that resulted from testing during the installation. We don't know who did the previous 6 QC sessions at the moment. I may, or may not, have been the first paying public user of this station. So it's really only been up and used for a couple days. To solidly claim it's place in QC history, we'll want to see this site operating reliable for several months, in contrast to the ill-fated Vacaville QC. In my references to this charger, if I say first, I qualify it with publicly available and full power (or 50kW) or Northern CA. The press release for this charger is already out, which claimed first and the San Bernadino charger had a low public profile, at least in N. CA. Had that been known the claim probably would have been different. I think everyone knows there were QC's in CA in various states of operation prior to this one. The "First Publicly Available" claim is a tricky one that several have been tripped up by, despite best intentions or inspired by marketing hyperbole. For me, bottom line, where are the QC stations, I can count on charging at today, and more importantly, tomorrow when I need a charge! So hat's off to everyone who has made a Quick Charge station in CA, be that a current one, or a demo / research one that are all important steps on the road to having 100's of quick chargers deployed in CA! The U.S.! The World Bwa-ha-ha-ha!
Quick Chargers are of limited utility if you can't count on them or another a couple miles away to be operational when you need a charge, preferrable 24x7, but minimally 7am - 1am, 7 days a week - nah, it needs to be 24x7 or it's a restricted or limted public charger because it's not available to the public all the time.
Some day, we'll all laugh about it, when we have 200+ QC's in CA, and someone asks - who was first? Who cares when we all have a QC near us and along the routes we want to travel in our EVs!
ElectricVehicle
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The electricity is from the City of Palo Alto.
The business rate schedules are here.
http://www.cityofpaloalto.org/depts/utl/business/business_rates.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Since this has it's own meter, it must be on one of the smaller plans.
Some figures are rounded in this post for simplicity.
I'll use 5 QC sessions/day for comparison purposes.
I'm using 20 kWh/QC Session, probably a bit high but that includes losses and these units draw a few watts idling, waiting for a customer, and 20 is just an easier number..
Also assuming 50 kW for peak demand, but if the QC tapers off quickly, then the highest power sustained for 15 minutes may only be 45 or 40 kW. Tried to search for some QC power over time data or graphs but couldn't find one quickly.
5 QC sessions / day * 20 kWh / QC Session * 30 days / month = 3,000 kWh/month
Electricity - Small Commercial Electric Service
Interesting, the no-demand charge rate is applicable unless you exceed 8,000 kWh for three consecutive months. Conservatively, if each QC is 20 kWh, including losses, that's over 400 QC sessions. That's more than 13/day which is over 6 hours of usage per day. That would be fairly high utilization before they exceed this rate.
$0.14/kWh Summer Energy
$0.13/kWh Winter Energy
No demand charge
Summer costs = 3,000 kWh / Month * $0.14/kWh = $420 / Month
Winter costs = 3,000 kWh / Month * $0.14/kWh = $390 / Month
http://www.cityofpaloalto.org/civica/filebank/blobdload.asp?BlobID=8098" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Electricity - Medium Commercial Electric Service
$0.08/kWh Summer Energy
$20.54/kW Summer Demand
$0.07/kWh Winter Energy
$13.84/kW Winter Demand
Summer costs = 3,000 kWh / Month * $0.08/kWh + 50 kW * $20.54 / kWh Month = $240 + $1,027 = $1267 / Month
Winter costs = 3,000 kWh / Month * $0.07/kWh + 50 kW * $13.84 / kWh Month = $210 + $692 = $902 / Month
It appears so far, the peak demand over a 15 minute interval has not exceeded 28.8 kW yet. I expect we'll see this reading change to 40 or 50 kW as a few people start Quick Charges with their LEAFs at low states of charge.
The business rate schedules are here.
http://www.cityofpaloalto.org/depts/utl/business/business_rates.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Since this has it's own meter, it must be on one of the smaller plans.
Some figures are rounded in this post for simplicity.
I'll use 5 QC sessions/day for comparison purposes.
I'm using 20 kWh/QC Session, probably a bit high but that includes losses and these units draw a few watts idling, waiting for a customer, and 20 is just an easier number..
Also assuming 50 kW for peak demand, but if the QC tapers off quickly, then the highest power sustained for 15 minutes may only be 45 or 40 kW. Tried to search for some QC power over time data or graphs but couldn't find one quickly.
5 QC sessions / day * 20 kWh / QC Session * 30 days / month = 3,000 kWh/month
Electricity - Small Commercial Electric Service
Interesting, the no-demand charge rate is applicable unless you exceed 8,000 kWh for three consecutive months. Conservatively, if each QC is 20 kWh, including losses, that's over 400 QC sessions. That's more than 13/day which is over 6 hours of usage per day. That would be fairly high utilization before they exceed this rate.
$0.14/kWh Summer Energy
$0.13/kWh Winter Energy
No demand charge
Summer costs = 3,000 kWh / Month * $0.14/kWh = $420 / Month
Winter costs = 3,000 kWh / Month * $0.14/kWh = $390 / Month
http://www.cityofpaloalto.org/civica/filebank/blobdload.asp?BlobID=8098" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Electricity - Medium Commercial Electric Service
$0.08/kWh Summer Energy
$20.54/kW Summer Demand
$0.07/kWh Winter Energy
$13.84/kW Winter Demand
Summer costs = 3,000 kWh / Month * $0.08/kWh + 50 kW * $20.54 / kWh Month = $240 + $1,027 = $1267 / Month
Winter costs = 3,000 kWh / Month * $0.07/kWh + 50 kW * $13.84 / kWh Month = $210 + $692 = $902 / Month
It appears so far, the peak demand over a 15 minute interval has not exceeded 28.8 kW yet. I expect we'll see this reading change to 40 or 50 kW as a few people start Quick Charges with their LEAFs at low states of charge.
JeremyW
Well-known member
ElectricVehicle said:
WHAT?! It's been 24/7 for a few months now. I've been there a few Saturdays with Garygid and a few others from the oc gang, and it's always been available.
Jeremy
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
At 384v / 125amps that the LEAF will request with a depleted battery, that's 48kW into the car. At 90% efficiency, that's about 55kW from the grid.
As the amps reduce, the voltage will climb to 394, but not exceed 48kW-ish.
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
ElectricVehicle said:
I guess you can throw enough qualifiers in there to make anything first, but the fact remains that this unit was built as a public, unrestricted 24x7 DC charger. It was limited to 40kW (that your Stanford charger has yet to surpass) because of a technical issue with one of the 5 power modules (each 10kW).
I'm sure that is being repaired under warranty, and then the power bill came. So, yes it was shut down, and will reopen, but it was still the first public for retail use DC charger in California. Getting turned off or having a warranty repair doesn't change that.
I expect that this will be up and running again in a month, but at an even greater power reduction. I'm sure folks would rather have that than nothing. Disclaimer: I am personally putting some of my efforts to make this happen.
JeremyW
Well-known member
TonyWilliams said:
Yeah, something doesn't seem right. 388V*105A= 40,740 watts ~45kW from the wall so you *should* have seen an update to that display in 15 min, and unfortunately I wasn't paying enough attention today to see that peak display. Also, if you were really at 50% SOC (or there abouts) you should have seen full power (125A) for about 2-5 min before it started ramping down. Not sure what that's about, wonder if this unit suffered from the "bad power module" syndrome that got the San Berdoo unit.
I saw markings for Schneider electric on the rack, not sure if that's been mentioned yet.Regardless, happy charging norcal!
Jeremy
JeremyW
Well-known member
TonyWilliams said:
I thank you for your efforts, but double check with Eaton on this (885-ETN-EVSE is their tech support line). I personally heard from an Eaton engineer that you can't turn it down, except if you pull a (single) power module which has already been done. Triple check, ok?
The next step would be intercepting the CAN messages sent by the charger to make the car think it can only draw below the demand fee. But that's a little more unorthodox.
Jeremy
ElectricVehicle
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Not being there personally, I saw posts saying it wasn't available on weekends, so maybe those posts were incorrect. So it may count as first public full power QC in CA.JeremyW said:WHAT?! It's been 24/7 for a few months now. I've been there a few Saturdays with Garygid and a few others from the oc gang, and it's always been available.ElectricVehicle said:
Jeremy
Regardless, all I really care about are lots of publicly available QC stations sooner rather than later.
ElectricVehicle
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I also caught a picture with it at 114A and 387V = 44,118 watts. But the whole Amp, Volts, Percent State of Charge display disappeared after the first minute or so, never to return. I had a piece of paper with columns labeled to collect data. Oh well!JeremyW said:TonyWilliams said:
Yeah, something doesn't seem right. 388V*105A= 40,740 watts ~45kW from the wall so you *should* have seen an update to that display in 15 min, and unfortunately I wasn't paying enough attention today to see that peak display. Also, if you were really at 50% SOC (or there abouts) you should have seen full power (125A) for about 2-5 min before it started ramping down. Not sure what that's about, wonder if this unit suffered from the "bad power module" syndrome that got the San Berdoo unit.
Regardless, happy charging norcal!
Jeremy
Can you point me to any place where we have the Quick Charge profile from a relatively empty battery. I think Phil may have collected some data on the Quick Charge profile but I couldn't find it or anything else.
Have you gotten any idea of what the highest power level is that is sustained for 15 minutes or more? The peak power should be the minimum power during that highest power 15 minute interval.
Useful to know both for predicting costs, and by looking at the profiles, we may find that dialing the power back to 45, 40 or maybe 35 kW would extend the charge time by less than 5 minutes and that could be a great strategy to trim the demand costs at some sites without causing a significanty inconvenience for the driver. Also useful to know for sites that may have less than 50 kw available to predict what the charge time would be and see if the site still makes sense, and many probably will.
Ingineer
Well-known member
If the screen is accurate, this means it's charging at 40.74kW.ElectricVehicle said:
-Phil
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
ElectricVehicle said:
JeremyW
Well-known member
ElectricVehicle said:
Tony beat me with the graph, I was going to post this- 50%-90% soc sesh:
From personal experience watching QC's though, there's always a little spike for a min or two before starting the ramp down. The spike is less the higher the SOC of course. From a battery below 50%, it'll try to draw as much as it can (~48kW) until it hits 50%, then starts the ramp down.
When I get my own leaf, I'm going to be doing a lot of logging of QC sessions.
Jeremy
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
JeremyW said:TonyWilliams said:
I thank you for your efforts, but double check with Eaton on this (885-ETN-EVSE is their tech support line). I personally heard from an Eaton engineer that you can't turn it down, except if you pull a (single) power module which has already been done. Triple check, ok?
The next step would be intercepting the CAN messages sent by the charger to make the car think it can only draw below the demand fee. But that's a little more unorthodox.
Jeremy
I will call them first thing in the morning. If this is the problem your forecast, I personally don't see many options:
1. Leave it shut down forever.
2. Pay outlandish demand charge for 10-50 users a month. I think somebody would go postal the first time a LEAFer complained about the price and nonchalantly offered, "I'll-Just-Drive-My-Prius (TM)". Remember folks, these are expensive to insure, and operate, even if all the hardware and installation and maintenance were free. The demand fee just pushes things over the top.
3. Spoof box to manipulate EATON to sub 20kW, but I don't have the skill set to make this happen, and those that do won't just drop everything to make this happen. Can you do this? I know Ingineer can, but he's currently working 32 hours per day. I'd have to buy him cases of NoDoze to try and work 35 hours per day.
4. Replace unit with one of the DC charger units I'm buying. This is a good option for a lot of reasons, but what do you do with a $50k "slightly used" DC charger ? I wouldn't be able to have this optional operational until July / August 2012.
5. ?????
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