Warranty booklet doesn't say much about the Battery pack

Read the Warranty Information Booklet to see what the terms are exactly for the Battery pack.

The booklet is very specific regarding Tires and 12V battery and how prorating works over the life of the component.

It shows an 8 year 100,000 warranty the battery pack at the front, but does not define the difference between gradual loss and catastrophic loss, nor does it show a pro-rated warranty coverage. In fact I could find almost nothing in writing regarding what the terms of the warranty are.

Without specific language one could be left shouldering all of the cost of 'gradual loss' regardless of the rate it occurs in your particular vehicle. It certainly would be more reassuring if Nissan provided a pro-rated schedule and accept risk sharing with the customer on this new technology!

Did I miss an important document regarding the specific terms for the battery pack?

I don't think you miss anything. Nissan is being vague in this area on purpose. There's some rumor about 70% remaining life at the end of the warranty period, but it's not anywhere in a Nissan doc.

Volusiano said:

I don't think you miss anything. Nissan is being vague in this area on purpose. There's some rumor about 70% remaining life at the end of the warranty period, but it's not anywhere in a Nissan doc.

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At this point then, the warranty is all marketing to convert prospects into customers and discourage them from switching to a Volt.

A warranty without a remedy clearly spelled out is not really a warranty at all. It's not even a promise.

The danger Nissan run is that if they deny warranty coverage as 'not covered due to gradual loss' and the car owner decides to sue for his loss, I wonder how the court/judge would make a determination without specific language? I would as the plaintiff point to the 12v battery warranty and claim a similar cost sharing, it's not that different being 84 months versus 96.

I think Nissan should warrant each of the 48 battery modules, rather than the whole pack, in the same way that the tire warranty is on an individual and not car basis.

Its an unfounded rumor.

This topic has been covered on many threads. There is no capacity warranty of any kind on the LEAF, implied or otherwise. There is a mfg defect warranty which is subjective as well. If a module or cell fails Nissan will likely replace it. Making statements as to where they will replace modules for lack of capacity is pure nonsense. This warranty is there to protect Nissan and it will in time once people start complaining about loss even though they were informed about it.

EVDRIVER said:

This topic has been covered on many threads. There is no capacity warranty of any kind on the LEAF, implied or otherwise. There is a mfg defect warranty which is subjective as well. If a module or cell fails Nissan will likely replace it. Making statements as to where they will replace modules for lack of capacity is pure nonsense. This warranty is there to protect Nissan and it will in time once people start complaining about loss even though they were informed about it.

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There has to be a point at which capacity loss stops being 'gradual' and is more catastrophic. Without putting boundaries around what 'gradual' means both manufacturer and consumer are subject to a 3rd party (probably a judge) determining that for them. Tires wear gradually but manufactures are happy to provide a pro-rated warranty against excessive wear, (one they know will hardly ever be claimed against).

Yeah Nissan are being cagey to protect themselves against any unexpected expenses if they promise something that doesn't transpire to be correct, but if all other manufacturers do offer capacity warranties (like GM do with the Volt) then Nissan will find themselves at a competitive disadvantage and will need to choose either to provide warranties or lose sales.

I like to think that Nissan are playing a waiting game and collecting data as fast as they can so they can define what real world gradual loss is and then warrant their product if it falls below a certain (yet to be determined) level of performance. Their willingness to provide a retroactive warranty on CVT transmissions that were clearly out of warranty is an example of their willingness to act, albeit after facts are clear to all and reputation was on the line.

Nissan don't appear to be willing to share the risk with the consumer. Little bit one sided if you ask me. But hey I don't have a reputation to lose, they do, hope they know what they are doing.

JPWhite said:

EVDRIVER said:

This topic has been covered on many threads. There is no capacity warranty of any kind on the LEAF, implied or otherwise. There is a mfg defect warranty which is subjective as well. If a module or cell fails Nissan will likely replace it. Making statements as to where they will replace modules for lack of capacity is pure nonsense. This warranty is there to protect Nissan and it will in time once people start complaining about loss even though they were informed about it.

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There has to be a point at which capacity loss stops being 'gradual' and is more catastrophic. Without putting boundaries around what 'gradual' means both manufacturer and consumer are subject to a 3rd party (probably a judge) determining that for them. Tires wear gradually but manufactures are happy to provide a pro-rated warranty against excessive wear, (one they know will hardly ever be claimed against).

Yeah Nissan are being cagey to protect themselves against any unexpected expenses if they promise something that doesn't transpire to be correct, but if all other manufacturers do offer capacity warranties (like GM do with the Volt) then Nissan will find themselves at a competitive disadvantage and will need to choose either to provide warranties or lose sales.

I like to think that Nissan are playing a waiting game and collecting data as fast as they can so they can define what real world gradual loss is and then warrant their product if it falls below a certain (yet to be determined) level of performance. Their willingness to provide a retroactive warranty on CVT transmissions that were clearly out of warranty is an example of their willingness to act, albeit after facts are clear to all and reputation was on the line.

Nissan don't appear to be willing to share the risk with the consumer. Little bit one sided if you ask me. But hey I don't have a reputation to lose, they do, hope they know what they are doing.

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IF they were confident about the pack they could offer a conservative capacity warranty over three years, say 70% usable. GM does not have a deeply cycled pack and adjusts capacity as the pack wears. Hybrids must have pack warranties in CA as the pack is part of the emissions control system.

Based on what I have seen hint of lately I am going to keep my eye on Hyundai for new, sporty and affordable EVs with good pack warranties. It would not surprise me if they shake up the market and their products are getting better quickly, Nissan seems to be going backward fast in quality and functionality. Unless Nissan completely changes their philosophy on quality and terrible usability in the UI then they may be headed for trouble after the early buyers are satisfied.

The battery is warranted for power, which is all that matters. Range won't drop off too much before power drops off, then the module will fail.

To put this another way, the car will fail to charge and drive long before a serious range reduction.

Nate

No, I disagree.

The battery is likely to show reduced range (due to reduced capacity)
long before it fails to produce enough power to move the car.

Nissan states that there is No Capacity Warranty ... period.

No, not gradual or fast or any other capacity loss. Just Not Covered.

garygid said:

Nissan states that there is No Capacity Warranty ... period.

No, not gradual or fast or any other capacity loss. Just Not Covered.

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I don't agree with you on that, Gary. There is a battery warranty which covers "defects in materials or workmanship subject to the exclusions listed under the heading 'WHAT IS NOT COVERED'." The "What Is Not Covered" section excludes only "gradual" loss of capacity. I expect a court would be likely to rule that Nissan was liable for any overnight loss of more than one capacity bar before 96 months/100K miles, assuming comparable temperatures.

Ray

gradual loss will not be covered, over lets say 3 months.. but if cell capacity drops 70% in one day then thats not gradual.. I would assume Leaf monitors and stores battery capacity in virtual Black Box. There will be suits, no idea if they will win. What do the disclaimer documents they make you sign say about it?

"The battery is likely to show reduced range (due to reduced capacity)
long before it fails to produce enough power to move the car."

I agree with Gary.

Nissan has modeled exactly how the battery will degrade, the only information that is hard to model is customer usage and behavior.. they probably are counting on the average driver commute of 40 miles or less a day.

garygid said:

Nissan states that there is No Capacity Warranty ... period.

No, not gradual or fast or any other capacity loss. Just Not Covered.

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Let me disagree also

The Warranty does exclude gradual capacity loss, it uses that term specifically. My point is there is no definition of what gradual means. I asked when I bought the car and the salesman called up to find out, the answer was long and ambiguous, it was clear they wouldn't say so. Same if you ask them the replacement cost of a battery pack, they say they don't know. Without a definition then a 3rd party will be responsible for deciding what gradual is or isn't. Other manufacturers have and will no doubt define a minimum capacity limit or what gradual means to them. Without a definition from Nissan, then a 3rd party will look to other manufacturers and use their definition in the absence of any other.

My guess is that the warranty will be amended in future years as Nissan have the statistics to ensure they don't over warrant battery packs to their detriment, but at the same time give customers peace of mind that a minimum standard is guaranteed by the manufacturer. Whether they do so just on future model years, or apply it retroactively will be revealed in good time.

JPWhite said:

The Warranty does exclude gradual capacity loss, it uses that term specifically. My point is there is no definition of what gradual means.

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Gradual is not a fuzzy term. You might be thinking about something like "slow", which is fuzzy. Where is the distinction between "slow" and "fast"? In contrast, the opposite of "gradual" is not fast, but "sudden" or "abrupt". That gives you a much sharper distinction. Imagine a battery that loses 5% of its capacity every month. It is not going to last very long, but that is still a gradual loss. But if it loses 5% of its capacity overnight, that is abrupt. Now, at 5% loss there will be arguments over whether it could have been just an instrumentation error, which is why I said earlier two or more capacity bars overnight.

Ray

planet4ever said:

JPWhite said:

Imagine a battery that loses 5% of its capacity every month. It is not going to last very long, but that is still a gradual loss.

Ray

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Yeah I suppose you're right. 5% a month is perfectly acceptable because its consistent and gradual. I just buy a new pack every couple of years.

Silly me.

planet4ever said:

Imagine a battery that loses 5% of its capacity every month. It is not going to last very long, but that is still a gradual loss. But if it loses 5% of its capacity overnight, that is abrupt.
Ray

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5% overnight is a gradual 0.01% per minute.

5% overnight is a vented cell, and a mess inside the battery case.. its not toxic or caustic but messy.

I did find the following FAQ on the official Nissan LEAF website.

Q: How many charging cycles can the energy storage device survive?
A: Like all lithium ion batteries, the Nissan LEAF™ battery will experience gradual capacity loss over time. We expect the battery to last over 10 years, however, there may be a gradual loss of capacity of 30% or more depending on your driving patterns, and the effect on your battery. The battery can be used afterward for storage applications.

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Time will tell if their estimates on on the money or not.

After reading numerous threads about the ambiguity of the 8 year/ 100,000 mile battery warrantee I decided to contact “Chat”. I told them that the vague warrantee implied that the battery would maintain 80% of its ability to charge for the term indicated. When I asked him exactly what was covered and what parameters the tech would be looking for in the “annual battery check”, he told me to call the technician who would be able to answer those questions.

I called the technician - one of the 1st to train on maintaining the Leaf, and he said good question but beyond replacement of a defective cell he had no idea. He did say that the test he makes includes charging and discharge rates. He also said that the batteries come in 4 battery units in a parallel series combination producing 8 volts per unit. He has already replaced a defective unit – not the entire pack. He referred me to the Maintenance Manger.

The Maintenance Manager said he would have to call the Nissan engineer to confirm exactly what is covered as he himself could not understand the warrantee wording. I waited 2 days and called him again and here is the answer from Nissan’s engineer:

The warrantee only covers factory defect failure of a battery unit. Degradation of the battery is not covered at all.

I asked about what we could expect and he stated the same I heard before that Nissan expects 20% degradation over 5 years. So, I questioned if 100% charging would reduce battery life as “Chat” said it would make little difference. He stated that only rapid battery heating or long term heating (leaving the leaf connected?) would negatively affect battery life. So, Level 2 charging to 100% should not significantly degrade the battery if you have it programmed to shut off in my standard 5 hour low cost time frame.

I then asked if he could find out if different modules were connected in series/parallel as this would allow partial battery pack replacement with improved performance. He believes they are in series but is checking with Nissan to be sure. I will post the reply.

So, you better start saving for your next battery pack because in as little as 5 years your driving range could drop 20%.

In the mean time I told him I would investigate Ford’s EV battery warrantee for comparison. Does anyone have it?

electricfuture said:

So, you better start saving for your next battery pack because in as little as 5 years your driving range could drop 20%.

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Whatever the numbers are, this is a good reason for some people to lease.

he said, she said, they said....if it is not in writing you don't have anything.

oh...and just to clarify, You don't have it in writing, so do do not have a capacity warranty.