Warranty booklet doesn't say much about the Battery pack

[surfingslovak]

I have not seen those statements.. there was a simulation study posted that estimated 3% annual loss in a Leaf type BEV using lithium manganese spinel under the temperature conditions of Phoenix. They considered that as worst case.

Simon Sproule went on record recently and stated that the battery will degrade 20% in five years, which spawned another interesting thread. Here's the corresponding statement for the Volt. Good to hear about the report, is it perhaps this one?

http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/vsa/pdfs/49252.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[EVDRIVER]

I have not seen those statements.. there was a simulation study posted that estimated 3% annual loss in a Leaf type BEV using lithium manganese spinel under the temperature conditions of Phoenix. They considered that as worst case.

Simon Sproule went on record recently and stated that the battery will degrade 20% in five years, which spawned another interesting thread. Here's the corresponding statement for the Volt. Good to hear about the report, is it perhaps this one?

http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/vsa/pdfs/49252.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He was very good at skirting the issue, saying you don't need to replace the pack and only modules that cost hundreds, exactly how many hundreds and how many modules?. What he did not clarify was that to get the capacity back up to 100% it would likely take replacing all the modules at hundreds each which is likely a very expensive proposition. He talks about the replacement as if he is addressing capacity but he really addresses defects and replacement of a few modules without being specific. The sly way he says most owners will have the car five years seems to be another cleaver way to sidestep addressing the actual issue. I would like to see an interview without questions that look staged with questions like: "How much will it cost in five years to get the battery pack back to 100% if it is at 80% or below, the total cost with labor today and projected in five years as well". Even though they know that answer they will never tell you. You know what they say about battery salesman

 

[surfingslovak]

You know what they say about battery salesman

That they all were snake oil salesmen in their former life? ;-) Thanks for your comment BTW, appreciate your point of view.

 

[mdh]

I hope Nissan will offer a sensible battery upgrade program down the road, because the car will be very limited for me with 20-30 percent less range.

The upgrade is called a new car

You should be good if you can charge to 80% and return home with one bar left... without recharging away from home.

I've now chatted with two service mgrs at my localer dealers and they've been told there is no impact charging to 100 percent vs. 80 as long as not using the dc. They claim to get this info from their corp service contacts. I have asked for more details as this conflicts with the manual.

 

[JPWhite]

I've now chatted with two service mgrs at my localer dealers and they've been told there is no impact charging to 100 percent vs. 80 as long as not using the dc. They claim to get this info from their corp service contacts. I have asked for more details as this conflicts with the manual.

My understanding is that DC charging is limited to 80%. So this makes no sense.

 

[surfingslovak]

I've now chatted with two service mgrs at my localer dealers and they've been told there is no impact charging to 100 percent vs. 80 as long as not using the dc. They claim to get this info from their corp service contacts. I have asked for more details as this conflicts with the manual.

Very intriguing, it would be good to get additional data if you hear more about this

The yearly capacity fade from cycling could approach 1.5% if charging to full all the time and about 0.5% when charging only to 80%. Occasional charging to full should not have any measurable impact. We do have ballpark figures for calender life degradation from the NREL report Herm found earlier. This would be in addition to any losses from cycling. Obviously, all of these numbers are to be taken with more than a grain of salt and I hope that most of us will look back at this with amusement, not regret.

 

[surfingslovak]

My understanding is that DC charging is limited to 80%. So this makes no sense.

JP, I don't have any first-hand experience with quick charging, but have a look at a video PDXLeafer recorded couple of months ago. The DC charger did not stop at 80% like he anticipated and there was some speculation about this.

http://www.no-url.com/LEAF/LevelIIICharging_01-30-11.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1401&p=109596&hilit=393V#p109644" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[JPWhite]

My understanding is that DC charging is limited to 80%. So this makes no sense.

JP, I don't have any first-hand experience with quick charging, but have a look at a video PDXLeafer recorded couple of months ago. The DC charger did not stop at 80% like he anticipated and there was some speculation about this.

http://www.no-url.com/LEAF/LevelIIICharging_01-30-11.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1401&p=109596&hilit=393V#p109644" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well that's scary. Can't walk off and leave it charging while you eat a meal or whatever :-(

 

[DaveEV]

My understanding is that DC charging is limited to 80%. So this makes no sense.

JP, I don't have any first-hand experience with quick charging, but have a look at a video PDXLeafer recorded couple of months ago. The DC charger did not stop at 80% like he anticipated and there was some speculation about this.

http://www.no-url.com/LEAF/LevelIIICharging_01-30-11.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1401&p=109596&hilit=393V#p109644" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well that's scary. Can't walk off and leave it charging while you eat a meal or whatever :-(

I believe that if your SOC is < 50% it will only charge to 80% and if it's > 50% it will charge to 100%.

No need to worry about the effects on your battery, the car will protect itself.

 

[saywatt]

I've read this entire string and the most important fact about a vague battery warranty has not been mentioned. After 25 years in sales, if there is one I have learned it is that: "the customer is always right"

 

[davewill]

Well that's scary. Can't walk off and leave it charging while you eat a meal or whatever :-(

Not really. It doesn't stop, but it DOES slow down as it gets closer to full. Your battery will be protected. Nissan likes to quote QC to 80% in 30 minutes because it sounds better than QC to 100% in an hour (or however long it really takes).

 

[surfingslovak]

It doesn't stop, but it DOES slow down as it gets closer to full. Your battery will be protected.

Excellent point. The Leaf was charging at about 1C, which tapered off to about 0.5C towards the end of the video. It was fast, but not particularly quick ;-)

 

[Herm]

Its a fact that lithium ion manganese spinel chemistry as used in the Volt and Leaf will degrade faster if charged to 100%, even if slow charged. The electrolyte degrades at higher voltages.. if you want 100% charges all the time stick with low voltage LiFePO4 chemistry such as A123 uses, but it will be a bit heavier. It is my belief that this is why Nissan recommends charging to 80% routinely.

100% charges are not the kiss of death, its ok to do it occasionally as needed.. just before you need it.

 

[electricfuture]

Thanks surfingslovak for the detailed technical breakdown of the battery configurations that I could not get from the Service Manager at the largest Leaf dealer in San Diego County.

This means that the whole pack must be replaced to increase performance as if you only replace some modules they will automatically “float” to the level of the other modules as they are connected in series.

I am now charging to 80% and driving a max 65 miles per hour on the highway (in San Diego most driving is on highways) which seems to have resulted in significant increased range. This was noted in another post. The result is that I get the same range or more with an 80% charge as I did with a 100% charge by keeping the top speed between 60-65 mph rather than 70 mph I was driving and so far have not been rear-ended!

 

[aqn]

On a related note, if I remember correctly, an FAQ or a Wiki directly attached to the forum was suggested at some point. Did that get any traction? Are you seeing any contributors in your Wiki? I think that the Leaf community really needs an FAQ, especially in the light of the unsatisfactory customer service experience described in this thread.

I posted a response to this over in the "Integrate a Leaf Wiki?" thread.