LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)
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kubel
Well-known member
jamieo said:
Nissan's has previously roadmapped a 1,750 kg barrier for entry into PHEV. They don't feel PHEV makes sense for lower weight, and they don't feel BEV makes sense for higher weight. This was under the Palmer regime. We will see PHEVs but I don't think they will bear the LEAF name and I don't think they will follow Hyundai's approach.
edatoakrun
Well-known member
Not much. The reporter mangled Nissan's remarks almost beyond recognition.jamieo said:
Nissan has said the second generation LEAF will be a BEV, and any ICE in other Nissan BEVs will probably be a generator in a BEVx, rather than in a PHEV.
Nissan's e-Power range-extended BEV, for sale by 3/31/17 in Japan
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=22166
If you read the source (?) for that statement today, this ~two year old article, you might conclude the writer missed what Andy Palmer was Actually hinting at...
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1092490_nissan-to-launch-plug-in-hybrids-too-in-less-than-two-years
edatoakrun
Well-known member
I hope autonews has this wrong.
I was actually hoping the complete blackout on gen 2 LEAF info from Nissan might mean an official reveal was coming in the near-future.
Would anyone have believed back in 2010 that Nissan would try to get even the more-than-six years it already has out of its first gen BEV?
Please Nissan, do not think that just putting a new nose on the gen one is enough of an update for the LEAF to sell it for ~three more years.
On the positive side, the fact that such an old design still leads BEV model sales world-wide, may be evidence that the LEAF was well designed in the first place.
Or alternately, that other manufactures haven't advanced their BEV designs very significantly since...
I was actually hoping the complete blackout on gen 2 LEAF info from Nissan might mean an official reveal was coming in the near-future.
Would anyone have believed back in 2010 that Nissan would try to get even the more-than-six years it already has out of its first gen BEV?
Please Nissan, do not think that just putting a new nose on the gen one is enough of an update for the LEAF to sell it for ~three more years.
On the positive side, the fact that such an old design still leads BEV model sales world-wide, may be evidence that the LEAF was well designed in the first place.
Or alternately, that other manufactures haven't advanced their BEV designs very significantly since...
http://www.autonews.com/article/20160725/OEM04/307259989/1657
NeilBlanchard
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jamieo said:
Doing a full parallel series hybrid like a Volt or the Prius Prime is MUCH harder than a series hybrid like the i3 REx. I doubt that Nissan would go through that much effort.
Designing a longer range EV is counter to designing a plugin hybrid.
geefish
Active member
The dailysunknoxville article is rubbish. Carlos Ghosn has twice so far clearly stated clearly that the range extender model Nissan will release is seperate to the Leaf and that the Leaf name will only be associated with BEV's.
Secondly, if you read through some of the articles the dailysunknoxville has released over the years, they are riddled with mistakes and assumptions and are niether based on facts or media releases. They are just a rehash of poor opinions.
Also, Carlos earlier in the year, stated that this December we would see where the next Leaf would be going. Whilst he didnt specify if this would be a reveal of the new model or an actual product release, he was very specific. This is also why I feel a 40kw/h upgrade to the Leaf may be only a rumour - but I've been wrong before and I'm sure I'll be wrong again.
Interesting times ahead.
Secondly, if you read through some of the articles the dailysunknoxville has released over the years, they are riddled with mistakes and assumptions and are niether based on facts or media releases. They are just a rehash of poor opinions.
Also, Carlos earlier in the year, stated that this December we would see where the next Leaf would be going. Whilst he didnt specify if this would be a reveal of the new model or an actual product release, he was very specific. This is also why I feel a 40kw/h upgrade to the Leaf may be only a rumour - but I've been wrong before and I'm sure I'll be wrong again.
Interesting times ahead.
Was Elon Musk was right about the cooling of the Leaf pack... This is from 2010...
Tesla Motors (s TSLA) CEO Elon Musk has derided Nissan’s battery pack, which uses an air cooling system, as “primitive” compared with the sophistication of even Tesla’s first prototype, which uses liquid cooling. As a result, the LEAF pack will have temperatures “all over the place,” claimed Musk, causing it to suffer “huge degradation”
Tesla Motors (s TSLA) CEO Elon Musk has derided Nissan’s battery pack, which uses an air cooling system, as “primitive” compared with the sophistication of even Tesla’s first prototype, which uses liquid cooling. As a result, the LEAF pack will have temperatures “all over the place,” claimed Musk, causing it to suffer “huge degradation”
desiv
Well-known member
Yes and no.. ;-)gadyamit said:
Yes, the cooling in the Leaf is primitive.
Yes, the Tesla cooling is more elegant.
In some situations, the Leaf battery can degrade significantly because of this.
That being said, in a lot of areas where it isn't very hot, degradation due to heat is minimal compared to degradation do to aging.
(There's a great battery aging chart somewhere on this site..)
The Tesla style of cooling is much more complicated and adds costs to the car.. Not a big deal if you are spending Tesla money.
But if you are spending Leaf money??? Maybe, maybe not...
Hard to tell..
I'm sure most people in hot climates would have preferred a more active thermal management system.
A lot of people in the Pacific Northwest (or UK, etc), maybe not. And if they were told it was going to raise the price of the car $XXXX???
And, if someone (Nissan or whomever) can come up with a more primitive system of cooling that, combined with battery chemistry and other factors, works much better in warmer climates and keeps costs down, that would be a win-win. (Just to be clear, the Leaf isn't that.. ;-) .. yet)
Also, if someone comes up with some type of battery swap method that means end users wouldn't worry about battery degradation (the manufacturer would just work it into their recycling / re-purposing), it would also be a moot point, although I don't see the market going that way..
desiv
After reading what Musk has said I dig a little deeper ... http://www.hybridcars.com/bmw-and-lg-chem-trump-tesla-in-battery-thermal-management/
I'm now sure that Leaf "primitive" even for small money is NOT justifiable... coming from a warm area it is obvious around here.
Bottom line I'm sure (and hope) that the future pack of all electric car will have system like the link above...
I'm now sure that Leaf "primitive" even for small money is NOT justifiable... coming from a warm area it is obvious around here.
Bottom line I'm sure (and hope) that the future pack of all electric car will have system like the link above...
WetEV
Well-known member
gadyamit said:
I hope not. If battery chemistry improves to give better lifetime, then cheap and simple passive cooling will be the best choice for most people.
It is complex, as well. I'm not at all sure.
Cooling is not free. Costs money and energy. Same with cooling systems.
What's the minimum cost? Well, depends on lots of details and circumstances.
Interesting article - future charge rates of 200 + KW! Appears charge stations will need to be located near electrical substations just to get the voltage requirements. The "standard" of QC stations fed by 480 VAC may not be adequate. I doubt flexible cables can be used from the charger to the car - requiring standardized automated/mechanical systems. If so, why not add the cooling systems as part of the UQC station.
Is it time to do the impossible (if we are serious about EV evolution), and standardize modular battery packs for "slide-in" replacement. Carrying the extra "baggage" of cooling for ultra fast charging (not required for actual operation on the road), could drive the EV revolution in that direction. The "current" (tongue in cheek) gas stations could remove the useless drive thru wash station with an automated battery change-out station. Batteries could be recharged at a reasonable rates and stored in perfect conditions. Modular battery packs (say in 20 KWH increments) could be easily handled automatically, or physically by one person if needed.
As the song goes "dream on - dream on".
Is it time to do the impossible (if we are serious about EV evolution), and standardize modular battery packs for "slide-in" replacement. Carrying the extra "baggage" of cooling for ultra fast charging (not required for actual operation on the road), could drive the EV revolution in that direction. The "current" (tongue in cheek) gas stations could remove the useless drive thru wash station with an automated battery change-out station. Batteries could be recharged at a reasonable rates and stored in perfect conditions. Modular battery packs (say in 20 KWH increments) could be easily handled automatically, or physically by one person if needed.
As the song goes "dream on - dream on".
my dream:
Its time for new battery. . . the battery is drained. I drive up to a battery station. I pull out 4 drained battery briefcases from trunk. I put the briefcases into a vending machine. The machine verifies the briefcases. I push a few buttons, requesting 4 new batteries. I get 4 batteries from the machine. I put the batteries back to docking in the trunk. Off I go. Another 100 miles on my 400miles journey from San Francisco to LA disneyland.
I forgot to tell you: I do not own the batteries. They belong to the battery company. I pay for the charge and wear and tear of the battery.
dream on ... dream on ... dream on ...
Its time for new battery. . . the battery is drained. I drive up to a battery station. I pull out 4 drained battery briefcases from trunk. I put the briefcases into a vending machine. The machine verifies the briefcases. I push a few buttons, requesting 4 new batteries. I get 4 batteries from the machine. I put the batteries back to docking in the trunk. Off I go. Another 100 miles on my 400miles journey from San Francisco to LA disneyland.
I forgot to tell you: I do not own the batteries. They belong to the battery company. I pay for the charge and wear and tear of the battery.
dream on ... dream on ... dream on ...
desiv
Well-known member
Nice, but will require some significant tech issues.. Notably, weight..soldcake said:
The Leaf pack is around 400 - 650 pounds (depending on what you consider the pack and different google results.. ;-).
But maybe eventually, if you are really patient.. ;-)
desiv
GRA
Well-known member
Meanwhile: http://inhabitat.com/green-cell-universal-battery-sold-in-vending-machines/desiv said:
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZi0DZITlVM
Never mind batteries, I'm still waiting for Amazon to deliver my Mr. Fusion(tm)!
Nubo
Well-known member
gadyamit said:
The initial Tesla pack wasn't all unicorns and rainbows. Their vaunted thermal system was a huge vampire drain, and customers lost entire packs when they left their vehicles unplugged and unattended for even fairly short periods of time, in contrast with LEAF which can easily go months without significant SOC losses. Tesla have definitely improved, but there is still a vampire drain to this day. Engineering tradeoffs. In total, I prefer Nissan's approach.
Bufordleaf
Well-known member
So...getting back to the original topic of the Leaf 2, I was at my local Nissan dealership today to get a replacement tire inflation kit for the Leaf, and the parts guy started asking me how I like the car, do I like driving electric, etc. Pretty good conversation, then out of the blue he says the pictures they have been shown of the next gen Leaf make it appear to be a really sharp looking car, and they have been told by Nissan to expect roughly twice the range of the current Leaf. He went on to say it would go on sales either in 2017 or 2018.
Not exactly earth shattering news if you read the various EV sites, but a kind of confirmation of the strong rumors that have been circulating about Leaf 2. And he simply volunteered this info, I wasn't fishing for anything. I found it interesting.
Not exactly earth shattering news if you read the various EV sites, but a kind of confirmation of the strong rumors that have been circulating about Leaf 2. And he simply volunteered this info, I wasn't fishing for anything. I found it interesting.
DNAinaGoodWay
Well-known member
Hmm, well, if it's still a year behind the Bolt, current Leafs should be easy to deal for, even if they go to 40 kWh.
GetOffYourGas
Well-known member
Twice the range? Hmm. That's 168 miles. In practice it's not very different from 200 miles. Would that 16% difference make a huge dent in sales? Maybe. 200 Mike's send to be a psychological barrier. I may still bite at 168 if the price is right and the AC network grows.
Or maybe he means twice the 107? That would be 214, and more in line with what we've been expecting.
Could it be that both rumors of 40kWh and 60kWh batteries are correct? That these are the new options for the Leaf?
Or maybe he means twice the 107? That would be 214, and more in line with what we've been expecting.
Could it be that both rumors of 40kWh and 60kWh batteries are correct? That these are the new options for the Leaf?
GRA
Well-known member
To date, Nissan has been adamant that they weren't going to use active cooling systems on the LEAF, but did at least install a limited air cooling one on the e-NV200 van: http://insideevs.com/heres-nissan-employs-active-air-cooling-e-nv200-battery-pack/gadyamit said:
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