LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

[dhanson865]

The leaf pack is already thermally insulated. I don't think you are correct about the needs and effects of a TMS.

Consider that heat is dissipated in the Leaf battery pack.

Consider that heat is dissipated away from the leaf battery pack at such a slow rate its almost non existent. It takes 12-24 hours for my pack to cool if we go from a hot day to a cool day.

You just don't realize how well the old Leaf battery pack is thermally insulated.

 

[WetEV]

You just don't realize how well the old Leaf battery pack is thermally insulated.

Then remove the thermal insulation, and make your battery cooler.

 

[WetEV]

I realize that the PNW folks have been reveling in their greatly reduced battery degradation compared to the majority of the country, which is warmer.

I don't want the increased battery degradation I'd get with a TMS.

Understand that I'm well aware that there are lots of individual cases, as well as general reasons why a TMS would suit some. Hills, long drives with DCQC sessions, as well as climate, can make a TMS worthwhile. I can see why other people want a TMS. I don't want a TMS.

Is that "reveling"?

 

[gadyamit]

The actual data support TMS, not for some but for all. For one reason only, limit battery degradation.
If some people want to avoid reason that is fine we are just talking nicely...

Just like the NV200 we will see some kind of TMS in the next generation Leaf and yes Elon Musk was right all the way. As I said, I'm now convinced that Tesla high-end car have nothing to do with the actual need for good TMS system, it is back to pure physics and Chemistry.
No electric car based on Li-Ion can avoid that if you want your battery pack to last.

 

[WetEV]

The actual data support TMS, not for some but for all. For one reason only, limit battery degradation.
If some people want to avoid reason that is fine we are just talking nicely...

Just like the NV200 we will see some kind of TMS in the next generation Leaf and yes Elon Musk was right all the way. As I said, I'm now convinced that Tesla high-end car have nothing to do with the actual need for good TMS system, it is back to pure physics and Chemistry.
No electric car based on Li-Ion can avoid that if you want your battery pack to last.

Really. I'm glad to hear you are a real battery expert. I'm not one, I used to share an office with real battery expert, so I have a hint about how much I don't know. So I tend to read things like NREL reports. Like, say this one.

Active balancing provides benefit greater than liquid cooling

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy15osti/64622.pdf

 

[Stanton]

Really. I'm glad to hear you are a real battery expert. I'm not one, I used to share an office with real battery expert, so I have a hint about how much I don't know. So I tend to read things like NREL reports. Like, say this one.

Active balancing provides benefit greater than liquid cooling

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy15osti/64622.pdf

Thanks for that link...I'm going to check that presentation out!

 

[GRA]

The actual data support TMS, not for some but for all. For one reason only, limit battery degradation.
If some people want to avoid reason that is fine we are just talking nicely...

Just like the NV200 we will see some kind of TMS in the next generation Leaf and yes Elon Musk was right all the way. As I said, I'm now convinced that Tesla high-end car have nothing to do with the actual need for good TMS system, it is back to pure physics and Chemistry.
No electric car based on Li-Ion can avoid that if you want your battery pack to last.

Really. I'm glad to hear you are a real battery expert. I'm not one, I used to share an office with real battery expert, so I have a hint about how much I don't know. So I tend to read things like NREL reports. Like, say this one.

Active balancing provides benefit greater than liquid cooling

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy15osti/64622.pdf

The graph on pg. 18 seems to show that in Phoenix temps, liquid cooling and active balancing have about the same effect on lifetime compared to passive cooling (liquid cooling appears to offer slightly greater advantage as best I can estimate), but that both together are needed to maximize life. In cooler locations, there's little benefit to using both, and active balancing has the edge, at least with the chemistries used in this test (I see one battery is A123, so presumably LiFePO4, and I don't know what the other company uses). Is any manufacturer using this now?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Other comments already covered the issue of cold climate i.e. we can't build cars that can only work in cold weather...
I assume that Japan as a cold climate country was the wrong place to test battery durability solution when Leaf was on the design board.

But for right now If Nissan came to that conclusion (i.e. TMS is needed) we should talk about other issues...

The next generation on-board charger....
For Leaf 2 a new on-board charger should have a automatic charging mode that limit full charge to about 85 %,
Only when you must have the full charge you can switch to a full charge mode. I assume that for less then 10% of our trips we need the full charge. So making the default mode to about 85% charge will increase longevity significantly. It should be simple feature.

Nissan Test facility is in Arizona and AFAIK, has been for years before the LEAF arrived

 

[blimpy]

I hate to say anything that makes sense, while you guys are busy arguing but...
The simple, low cost way to reduce temperature induced battery degradation in the Leaf Pack is

A-I-R--C-O-O-L-I-N-G. Introducing forced air cooling is the obvious way to get rid of waste heat.
This added greatly to the simplicity and reliability of the VW. Each aluminum skinned "cell" has a large amount of surface area, painting these black improves thermal conductivity even more.

Ram air cooling can provide much if not all of the required flow at speed, and a squirrel cage blower can do it at low speed.

Liquid cooling, with a1000 O-rings ( as in the Volt Battery) is a long term nightmare .
Look at some YouTube videos of the two battery types disassembled... and you wont want to own a volt or tesla
battery .

KISS Prinicple. Nobody talks about the admirable Leaf progressive refinement program which is so similar to what made the VW bug so successful, and so much improved over its many decades of production. Maintaining optimal battery temps also has some minor range implications.. but the longevity issue, especially in hot climes and under quick charge regimes make adding aircooling the obvious elephant in the room

 

[gadyamit]

It is known that people are more biased then they think...
I love the Leaf concept but I also live in a very warm place.

I have jus one issue that I want to bring... which is how much hit can the forced air move???

I think that the answer is that in extreme temperature it is NOT ENOUGH...

I know for a fact that warranty for Li-Ion battery (not for cars) but in a very large installation are expired as soon as the battery is getting to 95 F.
Actually the Leaf in Arizona getting to higher temp every day during the summer and some time to much more...

I asked about the warranty issue and it was said that even 95 F for one hour will reduce battery life significantly.

We have only one Chemistry

 

[WetEV]

I asked about the warranty issue and it was said that even 95 F for one hour will reduce battery life significantly.

We have only one Chemistry

One Chemistry (as a science_, but there are many different battery chemistries. Some do better at high temperatures and less well at low temperatures. Some have very narrow temperature ranges, some have wide temperature ranges.

 

[NeilBlanchard]

I asked about the warranty issue and it was said that even 95 F for one hour will reduce battery life significantly.

We have only one Chemistry

One Chemistry (as a science_, but there are many different battery chemistries. Some do better at high temperatures and less well at low temperatures. Some have very narrow temperature ranges, some have wide temperature ranges.

Agreed - demanding that some future battery chemistry to have the solution for yesterday's battery chemistry, is only so much speculation.

I really hope we get some actual facts about the next gen Leaf to discuss, soon!

 

[GetOffYourGas]

I really hope we get some actual facts about the next gen Leaf to discuss, soon!

I heard a rumor that Nissan would give us more in Paris. That's a little over a month from now. I hope that they do, I cannot wait to hear what they have planned.

Of course, this rumor was from a very poorly written article. I've found that most articles about future EVs are poorly written by people who obviously don't own one.

Edit: I know that hearsay of a rumor is about the weakest form of information possible. I tried to go back and find the source, but to no avail. I think most of us realize that Nissan needs to do something soon.

I personally am expecting some solid information out of them before the Bolt hits the showrooms. Enough to make some people hesitate buying a Bolt until they can cross-shop a Leaf 2.0. But that's purely based on gut feel.

 

[NeilBlanchard]

We know from the Leaf that Nissan keeps their secrets well. As I remember it, we got one teaser picture (a closeup of the base of the windshield) - and they we saw the whole car shortly thereafter.

 

[Nubo]

...I personally am expecting some solid information out of them before the Bolt hits the showrooms. Enough to make some people hesitate buying a Bolt until they can cross-shop a Leaf 2.0. But that's purely based on gut feel.

It's interesting that Nissan got out of the gate way ahead of other manufacturers but ever since it seems they have not relished their first-mover status and have been content to be in reactionary mode. We saw some battery range improvement once the Kia Soul hit the market, and just enough to compete. Will be interesting to see how they time LEAF 2 in regards to Bolt. Maybe they have simply learned their lesson that it's best to under-promise and over-deliver rather than the other way.

 

[TimLee]

We know from the Leaf that Nissan keeps their secrets well. As I remember it, we got one teaser picture (a closeup of the base of the windshield) - and they we saw the whole car shortly thereafter.

I hadn't even seen a picture when I went to the Versa test mule drive event in early spring 2010.
They had an early LEAF prototype you could look at.
But no touching allowed.

Might be like that for Gen 2.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

It's interesting that Nissan got out of the gate way ahead of other manufacturers but ever since it seems they have not relished their first-mover status and have been content to be in reactionary mode. We saw some battery range improvement once the Kia Soul hit the market, and just enough to compete. Will be interesting to see how they time LEAF 2 in regards to Bolt. Maybe they have simply learned their lesson that it's best to under-promise and over-deliver rather than the other way.

That's not how I see it. Nissan has a product for sale today, and hence much more to lose than a competitor such as Chevy. Like Neil said, I suspect Nissan is just very tight lipped on their own state of development.

Regarding range improvements, lets remember than all manufacturers have to work with basically the same state-of-the-art for batteries. Just because Nissan has been selling a car for 5 years does not mean they magically have access to future technology before Chevy.

Despite what is going on in the US, the Leaf still sells well worldwide. For the first half of 2016, the Leaf was still the best-selling EV worldwide

http://insideevs.com/worlds-top-10-selling-ev-models-and-10-manufacturers-july-2016/

Nissan really does have incentive to milk the current design as long as possible. Unfortunately for us, that means not saying a word about the Leaf 2 until absolutely necessary.

 

[Nubo]

It's interesting that Nissan got out of the gate way ahead of other manufacturers but ever since it seems they have not relished their first-mover status and have been content to be in reactionary mode. We saw some battery range improvement once the Kia Soul hit the market, and just enough to compete. Will be interesting to see how they time LEAF 2 in regards to Bolt. Maybe they have simply learned their lesson that it's best to under-promise and over-deliver rather than the other way.

That's not how I see it. Nissan has a product for sale today, and hence much more to lose than a competitor such as Chevy. Like Neil said, I suspect Nissan is just very tight lipped on their own state of development.

Regarding range improvements, lets remember than all manufacturers have to work with basically the same state-of-the-art for batteries. Just because Nissan has been selling a car for 5 years does not mean they magically have access to future technology before Chevy.

Despite what is going on in the US, the Leaf still sells well worldwide. For the first half of 2016, the Leaf was still the best-selling EV worldwide

http://insideevs.com/worlds-top-10-selling-ev-models-and-10-manufacturers-july-2016/

Nissan really does have incentive to milk the current design as long as possible. Unfortunately for us, that means not saying a word about the Leaf 2 until absolutely necessary.

Yep, unlike Chevy, who have been playing up the Bolt since beginning of 2015.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

So, LEAF Gen 2, I'd expect to be ready to roll, at the same time or shortly after Bolt's debut. Hope so. eNV200 too. Yet all media rumors suggest 2018. Smokescreen?

 

[fotajoye]

So, LEAF Gen 2, I'd expect to be ready to roll, at the same time or shortly after Bolt's debut. Hope so. eNV200 too. Yet all media rumors suggest 2018. Smokescreen?

Been disappointed with Nissan because of the way they have managed their EVs and their battery technology... especially when they squandered a six year head start with an excellent product right out of the box. The latest on their battery policies is they are abandoning their battery factories in favor of a third party battery maker and they do not offer an updated longer range battery for their older cars. It appears their battery business has been a failure.

They have manufactured about 250,000 EVs that are shut out of the used car market because they have so little resale value it doesn't make sense to installing an expensive same range battery. In most cases the battery cost more than the car.