Preliminary RANGE results

http://news.kanaloco.jp/localnews/article/1006110045/

Nissan Leaf Range at Full Charge

No AC/Heat, 60 km/h(37 mph) cruise : 220 km(137 miles)
AC/Heat, stuck in traffic jam : 75 km(47 miles)

Edit: Yeah, I know, nothing really useful.

I wouldn't get too alarmed about the "AC/Heat stuck in traffic jam" figure. Drivers are going to have to learn to balance the use of accessories. After all, "stuck in traffic jam" long enough with the AC blasting, and your range drops to ZERO. Just like any car. However, with an EV you can be stuck in a traffic jam for hours without using much power at all, which is very UNLIKE any other car. As the driver you have that choice.

I think those are good figures. Carefully driven....137 miles....we were right on the money with that. So, now, what about highway speeds?

70-80 miles, my guess.

Bicster said:

70-80 miles, my guess.

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Couldn't be more perfect!

mwalsh said:

Bicster said:

70-80 miles, my guess.

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Couldn't be more perfect!

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My guess or the reality? :lol: :lol: :lol:

My guess isn't worth the photons it's printed on.

I'd be curious to see more specific information, such has how LONG were they stuck in traffic, and how hot/cold was it outside? I'm hoping this is an extreme example.

As far as talking about the choice to use heat/cool.. Well, I live in Fort Worth, Texas. It gets very hot outside. I currently drive a PHEV prius (converted myself) and I don't really see much benefit from the PHEV if I am running the A/C or heater because the engine keeps running all the time. In the winter time, I can easily just wear a coat and drive without the heater. But in the Summer time (for example, right NOW! it is 100 degrees outside) I cannot easily tolerate the heat. So I give up and turn on the A/C. Which means I'm only driving a regular prius at the moment because my PHEV doesn't do much like that.

If I'm going down the highway I can roll down the windows and get a breeze.. True, it is still hot, but survivable. BUT - if you were sitting in a traffic jam and not moving, and it is 100 degrees outside, it would be miserable to turn off the A/C. Not only that but with the windows down the UV rays get in and give you a sunburn. Granted, this is only 3 months out of the year. June through August mostly, when it is over 100 degrees and no wind.

Oh - and one more thing. I wonder how well these figures will translate over to the Chevy Volt? Does that mean if the volt is sitting in a traffic jam running the A/C then it will only get 20 miles? Or, if we look at it from a percentage of the Kwh in the battery pack, then we lost 12 Kwh on running the A/C and the volt only has 8 Khw available, meaning the volt technically get 0 miles EV range.

Eventually someone will figure the load range (wattage) for A/C and heat on various settings. For now I am just going by the 10%-20% figures for A/C and heat, respectively. That may be optimistic for my climate. Yesterday while driving home my automatic climate control never managed to step down from the maximum output--and I have super efficient tint and park in the shade. With the Leaf, pre-heating and pre-cooling will help keep the A/C loads down while driving, but you won't have it when you want it most... eg car parked outdoors, not at home.

In Houston I run the A/C almost all year long. I even use it in the winter, combined with the heater, to help defog the interior of my car. The humidity here sucks. Of course that won't be possible with the Leaf.

I'm really surprised the Prius doesn't have electronic A/C. I would hope the official PHEV Prius will have that when it arrives, or who would want it outside of California?

How do you spot a Leaf driver....he's the one naked for the summertime commute. :lol:

mwalsh said:

How do you spot a Leaf driver....he's the one naked for the summertime commute. :lol:

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Yes - if you get stuck in traffic far from home start taking off your clothes :twisted:

I already see a Stewart/Colbert skit there ...

ps : Assuming it is a place with real summer - not like in Seattle.

Bicster said:

No AC/Heat, 60 km/h(37 mph) cruise : 220 km(137 miles)

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Can someone make out the usable battery capacity using this ?

At 5 miles/kwh this would mean 27.4 kwh. I think 24 kwh is the usable capacity rather than total.

evnow said:

not like in Seattle.

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The naked Leaf driver is Seattle is just getting his freak on.

evnow said:

At 5 miles/kwh this would mean 27.4 kwh. I think 24 kwh is the usable capacity rather than total.

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I would argue that there is no such thing as "total" capacity. There is usable capacity, and everything else is marketing. Is there even a way to define total capacity in engineering terms? What would that be, the capacity you obtain by charging the pack to just below its self-destruction voltage, followed by a total discharge, which you can do exactly once before you have to throw the entire pack away?

Marketing tends to get out of hand quickly. Just look at flat panel TVs. Most of the specs are bogus, just flat-out lies. Nobody will give honest specs anymore because they can't compete with that. We've come full circle from the 90's when a 17" computer monitor was 15 inches... eventually lawsuits (and legislation?) brought some sanity to the marketplace and now we have "42-inch-class" TV's... 240Hz refresh... bazillion-to-one contrast ratios...

Bicster said:

I would argue that there is no such thing as "total" capacity. There is usable capacity, and everything else is marketing. Is there even a way to define total capacity in engineering terms? What would that be, the capacity you obtain by charging the pack to just below its self-destruction voltage, followed by a total discharge, which you can do exactly once before you have to throw the entire pack away?

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You are right in a way - what we really need to know is just usable kwh. Max capacity if trickle charged to death is useful only as a way to tell us how the manufacurer is using the battery. For eg. we know GM is being very conservative - since they use only 50% of the max capacity. What is that figure for Leaf ?

Marketing tends to get out of hand quickly. Just look at flat panel TVs. Most of the specs are bogus, just flat-out lies. Nobody will give honest specs anymore because they can't compete with that. We've come full circle from the 90's when a 17" computer monitor was 15 inches... eventually lawsuits (and legislation?) brought some sanity to the marketplace and now we have "42-inch-class" TV's... 240Hz refresh... bazillion-to-one contrast ratios...

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My pet peave is the "wattage" claims on audio equipement.

Marketing tends to get out of hand quickly. Just look at flat panel TVs. Most of the specs are bogus, just flat-out lies. Nobody will give honest specs anymore because they can't compete with that. We've come full circle from the 90's when a 17" computer monitor was 15 inches... eventually lawsuits (and legislation?) brought some sanity to the marketplace and now we have "42-inch-class" TV's... 240Hz refresh... bazillion-to-one contrast ratios...

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Yep - how many digital cameras have we seen with bogus claims on megapixel resolution only to see some fine print that says (software interpolated) But in those cases the consumer is too stupid to know the difference, even when taking a picture. Most consumers can't tell the difference between 1 MP and 10 MP. But on a car, I think most people are going to realize very quickly if they aren't getting the stated range. True, many cheap Chinese electric scooters advertise range that is double what is actually attainable under ideal circumstances. But I doubt many people actually push those to the limit simply because they are toys for the most part and not intended as real transportation. So again, the consumer never really knows the difference.

Bicster said:

I'm really surprised the Prius doesn't have electronic A/C. I would hope the official PHEV Prius will have that when it arrives, or who would want it outside of California?

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Actually, starting with the 2004 model, the Prius does have electric A/C. (Mine is a 2002 so it is engine-driven) However, that doesn't necessarily help it much because most of the affordable plug-in kits barely supply more constant power than the A/C alone can draw. Take my prius for example, I can sustain about 30 to 40 mph in pure electric mode for miles at a time. But even if I had an electric A/C, and I turned it on, it would draw so much power that I'd only be able to sustain maybe 10 mph while running the A/C. Otherwise the engine is going to come on. And once that engine comes on, you greatly loose the benefit of the plug-in kit.

mwalsh said:

evnow said:

not like in Seattle.

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The naked Leaf driver is Seattle is just getting his freak on.

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Or may be they will have naked leaf riders during the Fremont Solstice parade :lol:

http://www.examiner.com/x-7311-Cultural-Trends-Examiner~y2009m6d21-Naked-bicycle-riders-fill-Seattle-streets-Fremont-Solstice-Parade-highlights-video

adric22 said:

Bicster said:

I'm really surprised the Prius doesn't have electronic A/C. I would hope the official PHEV Prius will have that when it arrives, or who would want it outside of California?

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Actually, starting with the 2004 model, the Prius does have electric A/C. (Mine is a 2002 so it is engine-driven) However, that doesn't necessarily help it much because most of the affordable plug-in kits barely supply more constant power than the A/C alone can draw. Take my prius for example, I can sustain about 30 to 40 mph in pure electric mode for miles at a time. But even if I had an electric A/C, and I turned it on, it would draw so much power that I'd only be able to sustain maybe 10 mph while running the A/C. Otherwise the engine is going to come on. And once that engine comes on, you greatly loose the benefit of the plug-in kit.

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"miles at a time"? Sorry, that just isn't possible with the Prius unless you're going down hill unless you're saying you have added extra battery capacity. Even in the Gen II on flat terrain at low (sub 20mph) speed from a full charge (appx. 70% SOC) you'd be lucky to go 1 1/2 miles.

The AC in the 2nd gen Prius (and same/similar in gen 3) draws b/w 2-5 amps depending upon your settings and the temp. Further, depending upon battery SOC, whether you're using ECO mode, and other factors it utilizes fuzzy logic to determine the most efficient way to run. Any AC system, to be effective, in high heat is going to use a lot of energy and the Prius AC is no different in this regard.

The PHV Prius uses a heat pump system that is more efficient than the current Prius climate control system, but it is also much more complex--but it allows it to heat or cool in cold or hot weather respectively.

"miles at a time"? Sorry, that just isn't possible with the Prius unless you're going down hill unless you're saying you have added extra battery capacity. Even in the Gen II on flat terrain at low (sub 20mph) speed from a full charge (appx. 70% SOC) you'd be lucky to go 1 1/2 miles.

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I guess you missed that part.. Yes, I have a PHEV kit in my prius, so yes, I can go miles at a time on EV mode. I think I have managed 6 miles once without the engine coming on. But I go 2-3 miles on a daily basis on EV mode. usually what keeps me from staying in EV longer is that I need more acceleration and have to hit the gas pedal hard enough that the computer engages the engine.

evnow said:

Bicster said:

You are right in a way - what we really need to know is just usable kwh.

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As I mentioned in the "reserve tank" thread.....it's beginning to look like the entire 24kwh is usable. So it's reasonable to think that the battery pack is somewhat larger than 24kwh, as we'd suspected at times. At 4kwh hour remaining, the "empty lamp" comes on, but you can apparently keep driving. Maybe with reduced performance?