Nissan Leaf vs Tesla Model S

http://arijaycomet.com/2014/12/30/comparison-our-2012-nissan-leaf-vs-our-new-2014-tesla-model-s85/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We're two-years into our 39-months Nissan Leaf lease. My wife has been LOVING her car (the Leaf), and I finally decided to join her in the EV wold. We are now 100% electric, having just picked up a Tesla Model S 85. See my article above for a full blog post about the two cars, and how we've made the transition.

Really excited to be a 100% EV family now!

Shaka said:

http://arijaycomet.com/2014/12/30/comparison-our-2012-nissan-leaf-vs-our-new-2014-tesla-model-s85/

We're two-years into our 39-months Nissan Leaf lease. My wife has been LOVING her car (the Leaf), and I finally decided to join her in the EV wold. We are now 100% electric, having just picked up a Tesla Model S 85. See my article above for a full blog post about the two cars, and how we've made the transition.

Really excited to be a 100% EV family now!

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Nice pair!
And congratulations on going 100% electric

you've written a good report for the newbies.
the leaf is a fine car as long as you are ok with it's limitations, the tesla solves many of the range issues but is weak in items you'd expect to find in a car of that cost, I sometimes feel like a beta tester in my almost $100k car. and there are issues with the cost of maintenance after the warranty period expires and the extreme costs of body repair in the event of crashes.
that said we are still in the infancy of BEVs and as more and more players offer more choices the cars will only become more useful and acceptable to the mainstream

apvbguy said:

you've written a good report for the newbies.

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Thanks. Yeah I have heard the complaint about beta testing. That's part of why I've waited until now to get s Tesla (v6 software and such makes me more confident). If it weren't for my negative equity trade I would have been able to afford a non-performance 85D with latest tech package. And that's really rhe car I want. At $107,000 (as configured) it would still lack some features a similarly priced BMW Audi mercedes wlukd have. But I am a huge EV fan and love being an early adopter there.

long term costs, for sure, make the tesla pricey. Tires every year potentially. $600 annual maintenance. It is not an average consumer car. I'm at the LOW end personally of the affluence level needed for a tesla but excited to be a part of it all. The future is going to be fun if tesla is an indicator. I also can't wait to check out the new b-class mercedes EV that just came out!

Buy the 4yr service package. That brings the price down 20%.
Unless you got the 21" performance tires, or drive 30-40k miles/year, the tires should last much longer than a year.

Still expensive to maintain, but shouldn't be quite so bad.

Zythryn said:

Buy the 4yr service package. That brings the price down 20%.
Unless you got the 21" performance tires, or drive 30-40k miles/year, the tires should last much longer than a year.

Still expensive to maintain, but shouldn't be quite so bad.

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Given my track record the longest I've kept any car is 33-months (that was because our BMW X3 ran out of miles on the lease and I didn't want more mileage, so we turned it in 3-months early). Otherwise, my average period of car ownership is 18-24 months overall. I just tend to get bored. Hence while I agree the 20% off for service makes sense, my fear is that I'd only keep the car 3-years at most, and ultimately I'd spend $1800 for 3 services, which is the SAME cost. I realize the 4th service would xfer to new owner which is a huge resale cost standpoint for sure... we'll see, I have 60-days to make that decision. But if I only keep the car through 2 services, then $1200 pay-at-time-of-service sounds better than $1800 pre-paid.

Interesting comments about the tires. I did indeed get the 21" package, with the Continental tires it comes with. It isn't the plus-package staggered setup obviously, but it is the 21s. I just love how they look. But with my 19" snow tires on now (see photo in thread), it does ride more comfy. My hope was that having two sets of tires, probably doing 10-15k miles per year, I'd hopefully get 2+ years out of the whole setup. If I can go 24-months without replacing any tires, I'd be stoked! You think that will happen? I don't drive like a kid anymore (I'm 38 years old), so I doubt I'll be pushing them too hard.

Excellent post, and I also liked your EVSE post comparing the Schneider EVlink to the Leviton EVB40 at http://arijaycomet.com/2014/12/21/c...n-evb40-pst-versus-schneider-ev2430ws-evlink/. It's always good to see what one can get with a step up to the luxury-ish model so that people can do their own value comparisons.

Shaka said:

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Interesting comments about the tires. I did indeed get the 21" package, with the Continental tires it comes with. It isn't the plus-package staggered setup obviously, but it is the 21s. I just love how they look. But with my 19" snow tires on now (see photo in thread), it does ride more comfy. My hope was that having two sets of tires, probably doing 10-15k miles per year, I'd hopefully get 2+ years out of the whole setup. If I can go 24-months without replacing any tires, I'd be stoked! You think that will happen? I don't drive like a kid anymore (I'm 38 years old), so I doubt I'll be pushing them too hard.

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With that setup, the pair should definately last 2 years, or more.
Tesla's latest blog goes into some detail on the tires.
In short, the 21s loose you some range.

As you noted in your blog (very nice btw), the Tesla does much better on highways. In summer weather if you take highways when possible, you should get closer to 240-250 miles.

For example, we typically drive about 60mph highways and get closer to 270-280 miles.
This is with 19" wheels, primacy tires, no hvac.

Your comment in the blog on the stated EPA ranges, I would suggest rewording that.
Those ranges are not based on "perfect" conditions. They are based on the EPA standard 5 cycle test, with seasonal adjustments..

Again, nice writeup! We were very close to the Tesla-Leaf pair ourselves

Thank you so much! - Updated the blog to list the EPA rating as noted. And also include the link to that new blog post they just put up at Tesla regarding driving dynamics and range. That will probably help future consumers, for sure!

Hope to get some good life from these tires, and some decent range. I'm fine with the 3% published loss for the 21s because I .. a) love how they look, b) will enjoy the improved handling. Though if I had to order a brand new Tesla today I'd probably get the 19" Cyclone wheels, the air suspension, and the 85D variant... but for what I have now, for the price, I really can't complain...

Congrats on the new car!

apvbguy said:

you've written a good report for the newbies.
... but is weak in items you'd expect to find in a car of that cost, I sometimes feel like a beta tester in my almost $100k car. and there are issues with the cost of maintenance after the warranty period expires and the extreme costs of body repair in the event of crashes.
that said we are still in the infancy of BEVs and as more and more players offer more choices the cars will only become more useful and acceptable to the mainstream

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I went to look at the model S (no test drive) with my cousin before he got his leaf. We then went right after to the Porsche dealer and sat in (again didn't drive) a panamera e-hybrid. No contest. The Porsche just felt so much nicer. If I was driving 16 miles or less with a charge at work and in that market I wouldn't even consider an S 85 vs that car (P85D on the other hand....). Again with Porsche you're still in maintenance and body repair costs that could = the purchase of a new leaf over a 10 year period.

Shaka said:

apvbguy said:

you've written a good report for the newbies.

Click to expand...

Thanks. Yeah I have heard the complaint about beta testing. That's part of why I've waited until now to get s Tesla (v6 software and such makes me more confident). If it weren't for my negative equity trade I would have been able to afford a non-performance 85D with latest tech package. And that's really rhe car I want. At $107,000 (as configured) it would still lack some features a similarly priced BMW Audi mercedes wlukd have. But I am a huge EV fan and love being an early adopter there.

long term costs, for sure, make the tesla pricey. Tires every year potentially. $600 annual maintenance. It is not an average consumer car. I'm at the LOW end personally of the affluence level needed for a tesla but excited to be a part of it all. The future is going to be fun if tesla is an indicator. I also can't wait to check out the new b-class mercedes EV that just came out!

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I'm sure there will be some much better wear tire choices to go with, you might lose range but if you don't need all of it you have a lot to spare. I also remember a quote from Tesla saying you don't need the annual maintenance every year anymore. (it's old now but I doubt they changed back http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1083800_tesla-tunes-up-model-s-warranty-loaner-cars-service-plan)

If you still want it you can probably stretch it to a 15 or 18 month interval to save a bit and still have the comfort level.

Shaka said:

long term costs, for sure, make the tesla pricey. Tires every year potentially. $600 annual maintenance. It is not an average consumer car. I'

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you can easily gt by without that $600 per year maintenance and tire wear on 19 inchers are not really that bad. The MB B class is a fine car but like the leaf it is crippled by a lack of range.

For what it's worth, my P85 Model S is 18 months old and has 20K miles. We've taken lots of road trips, most recently to Canada and back in August. I have the 21" tires, and while they're near the end of their life, the originals are still on the car with that mileage...I have rotated them every 5K miles and kept the inflation up there, trying to maximize their life...

I've been very happy with the car and the service...

Thanks for the write-up. We have a Model X reservation and it's always good to get a candid review to help us know what to expect with a Tesla experience.

I see that the Ohio "temporary tags" have gotten quite fancy. I miss those. Here in CA they tape a balled-up piece of paper to the inside of your windshield and the "holes" for the plates are typically filled by dealer advertisements. It's odd that a state that is so persnickety about front license plates can let brand-new vehicles drive around for weeks or months with absolutely no externally visible identification. "Oh, hey the vehicle has a balled-up piece of paper stuck to the windshield. Must be legit". :roll: :lol:

Just to note a couple of misconceptions about LEAF
- There weren't any big range "tweaks" in 2013. What was tweaked was the math. When Nissan had the 80% charge recommendation, the EPA calculated the range as the average of 80% charge and 100% charge. That accounts for most if not all of the 11 miles. The heat-pump heater does help preserve range under certain conditions but doesn't extend the ultimate range.

- LEAF does not have 3G connectivity. It's 2G, which may present a problem as AT&T phases out its 2G network; and is of course, much slower.

- LEAF ECO mode does not prevent rapid acceleration. You can accelerate at the same rate as non-ECO at any time. You only have to move the pedal further to do so. Full "throttle" delivers 80KW of power in both modes.

Regards.

Shaka said:

I'm at the LOW end personally of the affluence level needed for a tesla but excited to be a part of it all.

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Shaka said:

Given my track record the longest I've kept any car is 33-months (that was because our BMW X3 ran out of miles on the lease and I didn't want more mileage, so we turned it in 3-months early). Otherwise, my average period of car ownership is 18-24 months overall. I just tend to get bored.

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It is exciting that you are now an EV-only household. Hopefully the Tesla will retain your interest for a much longer period of time! We'd also like to add a Tesla (a Model X in our case) to our LEAF, but will wait until we can either purchase one used or perhaps buy a loaner vehicle at a discount.

In terms of one's level of affluence, most in the developed world have the ability to become more affluent, even without a large increase in pay/salary. The key is learning the art of contentment. When we are content, we are better able to defer spending, live below our means, pay off debt, and save and invest more. Down the road, this can lead to doing crazy things like paying cash for a discounted Tesla model that best meets one's needs/wants/requirements.

Admittedly, I am slightly conflicted in promoting this approach because I want Tesla Motors to do well and attract many, many new car buyers who are inclined to splurge, thus boosting Tesla's bottom line and investments in EVs. On the other hand, my best advice on an individual level to would-be Tesla buyers who are less wealthy is to be fiscally conservative and wait until they can purchase a Model 3 or a depreciated, used S/X. Thankfully, even this works in favor of Tesla Motors, as they will also profit from reselling used Tesla vehicles ("certified preowned"). And, in general, it is in their interest to have a robust secondhand market for their vehicles.

Great replies and awesome info about the Leaf that I was not fully aware of--- so thank you bunches for sharing. I've cross-posted my blog Post over on the Tesla Motors Club forum too--- very interesting to see that there are many Leaf owners over there... fun stuff!

abasile said:

Admittedly, I am slightly conflicted in promoting this approach because I want Tesla Motors to do well and attract many, many new car buyers who are inclined to splurge, thus boosting Tesla's bottom line and investments in EVs. On the other hand, my best advice on an individual level to would-be Tesla buyers who are less wealthy is to be fiscally conservative and wait until they can purchase a Model 3 or a depreciated, used S/X. Thankfully, even this works in favor of Tesla Motors, as they will also profit from reselling used Tesla vehicles ("certified preowned"). And, in general, it is in their interest to have a robust secondhand market for their vehicles.

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Tesla has also just shown that they aren't letting old models be, with the roadster 3.0 upgrade they said that similar upgrades to battery tech will be available.

If they continue this commitment then the used 60 S you buy in 4 years time might have a 300 or 400 mile option 8 years from now.

I think if anyone finds used 40s out there they will be the real value if they fall less than $10,000 than a 60 you can unlock the remaining portion for $10,000 and you can offset the out of pocket cost if you don't "need" to do it right away.

OP, are you leasing or buying? Did you get any discounts?

Your review popped up in my Google now feed this morning and I read it with interest this morning before coming to work.

Tesla Model S is our dream car right now, but even with what I would consider upper middle class income from both spouses, I cannot pull off the $1000 plus per month payments.

BTW I also installed a Scheneider EVLink for my Leaf and totally agree with your review.

mdxc90 said:

OP, are you leasing or buying? Did you get any discounts?

Your review popped up in my Google now feed this morning and I read it with interest this morning before coming to work.

Tesla Model S is our dream car right now, but even with what I would consider upper middle class income from both spouses, I cannot pull off the $1000 plus per month payments.

BTW I also installed a Scheneider EVLink for my Leaf and totally agree with your review.

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Glad to hear you found my review. If you have any other questions as we settle into having both the Leaf and Tesla let me know. We are loving it.

Tesla is pushing inventory cars that were old service loaners or demos because they were built before the autopilot features (no forward facing camera etc for lane assist and so forth). These cars are $9-15,000 off msrp. My was was $9,500 discounted plus the $7,500 tax credit making is affordable for me. But even then I skipped certain features I wanted like air suspension and upgraded radio just to keep it reasonable. Next car will add those and all wheel drive (85D) in a few years. But yeah still a $1000+ car payment at my income level too! Thank goodness my credit union offers low down payments and aggressive rates. We financed since leasing required $15,000 down which I did not have at this moment.

Shaka said:

mdxc90 said:

OP, are you leasing or buying? Did you get any discounts?

Your review popped up in my Google now feed this morning and I read it with interest this morning before coming to work.

Tesla Model S is our dream car right now, but even with what I would consider upper middle class income from both spouses, I cannot pull off the $1000 plus per month payments.

BTW I also installed a Scheneider EVLink for my Leaf and totally agree with your review.

Click to expand...

Glad to hear you found my review. If you have any other questions as we settle into having both the Leaf and Tesla let me know. We are loving it.

Tesla is pushing inventory cars that were old service loaners or demos because they were built before the autopilot features (no forward facing camera etc for lane assist and so forth). These cars are $9-15,000 off msrp. My was was $9,500 discounted plus the $7,500 tax credit making is affordable for me. But even then I skipped certain features I wanted like air suspension and upgraded radio just to keep it reasonable. Next car will add those and all wheel drive (85D) in a few years. But yeah still a $1000+ car payment at my income level too! Thank goodness my credit union offers low down payments and aggressive rates. We financed since leasing required $15,000 down which I did not have at this moment.

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Thank you for sharing your experience.

Good write-up on your blog, thanks.
Thursday will mark 4 years with our LEAF and ~21 months with our Tesla S85. We've had zero issues (knocking wood) with both cars.
The LEAF went through a set of Ecopias in 30k miles. I have about 18k mi on the Tesla 19" Goodyear all-seasons and they appear unworn.
In my limited winter driving experience, the Tesla's seat heaters are all I need. My hands never got cold enough to wish I had a heated steering wheel but to each his own. The side window defrost on the Tesla seemed insufficient to me. I was 50 miles down the road before I could use view both side mirrors.
The LEAF is my wife's daily driver and she loves the size and the way it drives. So much so that she hasn't wanted to trade it in for any other EV but, wishes for a bit more range, like an actual 100 miles.
I can get 265 miles out of the Tesla and 74 miles out of the LEAF (when new). My wife continues to use the LEAF "miles remaining" gauge (aka GOM), which is nearly worthless. Rather than use that somewhat arbitrary '265' number though, I have found the Tesla's rated range estimate to be accurate and crucial on long trips when used in conjunction with the "Trip" display which provides a Wh/mi value since the last charge.

I just returned from 10 days of skiing in Park City, UT which was about a 700 mile trip one-way, mountainous terrain, 80 MPH speed limits, surface conditions from snowy to wet to dry. It was -8 deg F when we started home and I had a heavily loaded car with a roof rack full of skis. The very low temp hammered my Wh/mi. I Supercharged 5 times on the way home (~13 hours door to door) and sometimes pulled in with ~10 miles remaining. Usually, I Supercharged long enough to have about 50% more rated range miles than the next stop, e.g., charge to 210 miles if the next SC was 140 miles away. Watching the Wh/mi I could easily assess how much extra juice I had. Rated range (210 miles in this example) requires I keep it under ~280 Wh/mi. To make it 140 mi I needed to keep the Wh/mi under ~420. With the road conditions and natural tendency to match the prevailing traffic speed, I had a hard time staying under 420 Wh/mi!
It was a shock to see that but it was better to be shocked in the first 30 miles and adjust accordingly than in the last 30 where I'd need a tow (or medication). "Adjusting" just meant slowing down to ~65MPH. Nothing dramatic like turning off heat. Using these gauges, I had no range anxiety at all on this trip.
Perhaps Tesla will eventually update the SW make it a feature of the Nav system to signal the driver if the Wh/mi + SOC won't get you to your next destination. Coupling in EVTripper data would be worthwhile as well.