mkwilkes
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:22 pm
Delivery Date: 19 Jun 2018
Leaf Number: 311155
Location: Salem, Oregon

Re: Conditioning Your Battery / Keeping as Healthy as Possible

Sun May 19, 2019 5:27 pm

In late 2017, I bought a 12 bar 2015 Leaf S. It was just off a one owner, three year lease. I am looking at the LeafSpy screenshot I took soon after I bought it.

28,950 miles
SOH - 95%
HX - 91.52%
369 Quick charges
593 L1/L2 charges.

With all the talk of battery heat and avoiding Quick Charges, how do you explain the health of this battery after three years? I kept it for 6 months before selling it and buying a new 2018. The GOM range always showed in the mid 90's to 100 after a full charge.
2018 LEAF S (Silver)
Options: Charge package, All weather package
Build Date: 4-18
Purchased: 6-19-18
MSRP $33,440, Final price $26,296 ($16,296 after Federal/State tax credits)
Prior LEAF: Sold
2015 LEAF S (Red)
32,750 miles, 12 bars, 93% SOH

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 11984
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Conditioning Your Battery / Keeping as Healthy as Possible

Sun May 19, 2019 5:51 pm

mkwilkes wrote:In late 2017, I bought a 12 bar 2015 Leaf S. It was just off a one owner, three year lease. I am looking at the LeafSpy screenshot I took soon after I bought it.

28,950 miles
SOH - 95%
HX - 91.52%
369 Quick charges
593 L1/L2 charges.

With all the talk of battery heat and avoiding Quick Charges, how do you explain the health of this battery after three years? I kept it for 6 months before selling it and buying a new 2018. The GOM range always showed in the mid 90's to 100 after a full charge.


QC sessions only need to be avoided when the pack is hot, not entirely, and the 2015 pack is the most heat-resistant of them all.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

Kieran973
Posts: 95
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:51 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2019
Location: near NY, NY

Re: Conditioning Your Battery / Keeping as Healthy as Possible

Sun May 19, 2019 6:33 pm

there is no line crossed at 81%. Only charge to what you need which includes a buffer. 20% is fine. 19% is fine. 21% is fine.


I guess my question could have been phrased more clearly. What I'm really asking is: whatever you do on a regular basis to try and slow down long-term capacity loss - keep the battery between 80% and 20%, keep the battery between 60% and 20%, straddle 50%, charge daily to ensure the lowest possible DoD, etc. - which SOC should you go by when doing this, the dash or Leaf Spy?
2019 Leaf SV (silver) with All-Weather Package

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13841
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Conditioning Your Battery / Keeping as Healthy as Possible

Mon May 20, 2019 6:24 am

Kieran973 wrote:
there is no line crossed at 81%. Only charge to what you need which includes a buffer. 20% is fine. 19% is fine. 21% is fine.


I guess my question could have been phrased more clearly. What I'm really asking is: whatever you do on a regular basis to try and slow down long-term capacity loss - keep the battery between 80% and 20%, keep the battery between 60% and 20%, straddle 50%, charge daily to ensure the lowest possible DoD, etc. - which SOC should you go by when doing this, the dash or Leaf Spy?



First off; you need to evaluate your needs and willingness to charge publicly.

The ideal situation is to straddle 50%. Avoid "any" time at the extremes (under 10% or over 90%) but again, no line here. If you are taking a trip, the convenience of a full charge far outweighs the slightly greater degradation you get from it. Degradation is not avoidable so it is all about balancing needs.

The only real red flags are high SOC AND heat. That is the worst situation. Now fast charging on a hot day but immediately driving away is probably better than charging at home then letting it sit a few hours before going anywhere. Its the time at high SOC that is the killer. Heat makes it worse.

With public charging, some are free, some are cheap and some are expensive. You want to know ALL your options on your routes. Plugshare.com is a good place to start.

If you are not into public charging, then get LEAF Spy. It allows you to know exactly how far you can drive. LEAF Spy is dirt cheap when compared to the stress LEAF instrumentation causes.

The following is personal opinion somewhat based on experience. I am ok with taking LEAF down to the last 5% SOC pulling into my garage. My 2013 probably came home under 15 GID maybe...100 times, maybe more than that. If that happens, no worries, plug in for an hour soon as you get home.

Each LEAF pack has acted differently (2011 and 2013 were close to the same) for me but my best pack by a HUGE margin was my 2016. Part of it was due to short period of time (14 months) but negating the miles driven (29,413) or QCs (275) the only real difference was it was first LEAF that had NCTC so I kinda went crazy on the free charging. My job helped as well but I was literally fast charging 2-4 times a day in Summer, getting home at 20-50% SOC and 10 (sometimes 11 temperature bars) The next morning, I would hit the QC and start my rounds for the day. This lasted 6 weeks while servicing a client who had 65 clinics in the region that was spread thru out the Olympic Peninsula down to Oregon. It was the perfect LEAF job as I had 15-45 mins of paperwork between each job and some days had as many as 12 jobs scheduled. So yeah, long hours but my charge time was being billed to the company since I was working. It was lucrative.

Anyway, 3 days before the 2016 was wrecked, I went 116.2 miles on a charge in January. This pretty much illustrated that I had "minimal" capacity loss. But the major change was much less full charges and a LOT of living in the middle. My charge time frequently was based on how long it took to do paperwork. Realize I was doing 14-25 hour days so sitting around was not an option. So it was a lot of plug and run which meant cycling from 20 to 70-85% several times a day.

TBT; I didn't charge overnight a lot of times due to having 11 temperature bars. I felt it better to let it cool off overnight and then grab a charge in the morning.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kieran973
Posts: 95
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:51 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2019
Location: near NY, NY

Re: Conditioning Your Battery / Keeping as Healthy as Possible

Wed May 22, 2019 11:12 am

OK, still not what I'm asking though. What I'm asking is this: when you make charging decisions with the goal of protecting the long-term health of your battery - "I avoid charging higher than x, I avoid discharging lower than y, because I believe this is the best way to slow capacity degradation" - which SOC informs those decisions? The one displayed on the dash? Or the one reported by Leaf Spy? This question goes for anyone on MNL.
2019 Leaf SV (silver) with All-Weather Package

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 11984
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Conditioning Your Battery / Keeping as Healthy as Possible

Wed May 22, 2019 11:48 am

I'll give it a try. It's better to use the car's display because that is what the collective experiences of charging behavior here are based on. OTOH, 80% should be considered a maximum safe SOC for sitting unused, with 60-70% being better and also corresponding with a lower SOC as indicated by LeafSpy.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
Posts: 4056
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Conditioning Your Battery / Keeping as Healthy as Possible

Wed May 22, 2019 12:30 pm

Those distinctions do not matter.

Keep between 20 - 80% SoC as much as you can. Use the LEAF meter for convenience.
Spend more time and effort in keeping the car battery cooler in the summer.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

Kieran973
Posts: 95
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:51 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2019
Location: near NY, NY

Re: Conditioning Your Battery / Keeping as Healthy as Possible

Wed May 22, 2019 8:42 pm

It's better to use the car's display because that is what the collective experiences of charging behavior here are based on.


OK thanks, sounds reasonable enough.


Those distinctions do not matter.


When I charge to 80% SOC on the dash, Leaf Spy says I have almost 90% SOC. So if the distinction between the dash and Leaf Spy doesn't matter, then wouldn't the distinction between 80% and 90% not matter? If so, why is 80% the max recommended threshold? Why not 90%? I agree that it's a lot more convenient to just use the dash than to take a Leaf Spy reading every time I plug in, but if Leaf Spy is the real (or more real) SOC, and 80% is the max recommended threshold for daily use, and I know that the dash will report an SOC around 8-10% less than Leaf Spy, then it seems like a better daily practice would be to not go above 70-72% dash SOC.
2019 Leaf SV (silver) with All-Weather Package

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 11984
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Conditioning Your Battery / Keeping as Healthy as Possible

Wed May 22, 2019 10:37 pm

When I charge to 80% SOC on the dash, Leaf Spy says I have almost 90% SOC. So if the distinction between the dash and Leaf Spy doesn't matter, then wouldn't the distinction between 80% and 90% not matter? If so, why is 80% the max recommended threshold? Why not 90%? I agree that it's a lot more convenient to just use the dash than to take a Leaf Spy reading every time I plug in, but if Leaf Spy is the real (or more real) SOC, and 80% is the max recommended threshold for daily use, and I know that the dash will report an SOC around 8-10% less than Leaf Spy, then it seems like a better daily practice would be to not go above 70-72% dash SOC.


Yes. Even though my Leaf is currently sitting with 90% indicated SOC (I forgot it was plugged in!) I generally try to stay in the 60-70% SOC range. Ambient or pack temps affect how urgent this is, though, so I'm willing to leave it at 90% for a day or so until I need to drive again, because it is currently quite cool here for May.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

User avatar
Nubo
Posts: 5124
Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 11:01 am
Delivery Date: 31 Oct 2014
Location: Vallejo, CA

Re: Conditioning Your Battery / Keeping as Healthy as Possible

Thu May 23, 2019 12:44 am

Kieran973 wrote:
It's better to use the car's display because that is what the collective experiences of charging behavior here are based on.


OK thanks, sounds reasonable enough.


Those distinctions do not matter.


When I charge to 80% SOC on the dash, Leaf Spy says I have almost 90% SOC. So if the distinction between the dash and Leaf Spy doesn't matter, then wouldn't the distinction between 80% and 90% not matter? If so, why is 80% the max recommended threshold? Why not 90%? I agree that it's a lot more convenient to just use the dash than to take a Leaf Spy reading every time I plug in, but if Leaf Spy is the real (or more real) SOC, and 80% is the max recommended threshold for daily use, and I know that the dash will report an SOC around 8-10% less than Leaf Spy, then it seems like a better daily practice would be to not go above 70-72% dash SOC.


This is getting into the realm of splitting hairs, I think. I don't think anyone has quantified the difference between long-term use of 80% charging vs. 90% charging. I don't imagine it's very significant. My 2015 battery is vastly better than my 2012 battery even though the 2012 was regularly charged to 80% via the built-in setting, and the 2015 has almost exclusively charged to 100%. The babied 2012 lost a bar before 3 years, while the 2015 has all 12 bars approaching 5 years, with my "worst-case" charging habits.

Under-charging WILL help extend battery longevity, if you have the inclination to practice it. But I wouldn't obsess over it too much.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

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