LEAFfan
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Thu Jun 05, 2014 8:44 pm

palmermd wrote:OK, after a little over three years we lost our first battery bar. As of today, 1st of June 2014 we have 54.91Ahr SOH 83% and Hx 68.63%, 25,382 miles, 1890 L1/L2 charges and 0 DCQC charges. We have charged the car to 80% only since the start of ownership, and have charged to 100% perhaps 10 times total, so we really took care of the battery. I originally purchased the car for myself, but my wife took over ownership of the car shortly thereafter. She has a short commute early in the AM (3am) and returns home at about 8am, so its outside in the cool part of the day and is kept in the garage during the heat of the day. I think that is how we managed to make it last as long as we did before losing the first bar. I've been away on business for the past 5 weeks, so I'm not sure exactly when it was lost, but sometime in the past 5 weeks, and today was the first time I drove the car since returning home Friday. I thought it was charged to 11 for some reason when I first got in, and then realized that we lost the top bar.

Wow! I lost my first CB at 54.9 AH too! But only at 8000/8 mos. (Dec.). Then a few months later, my AH went to 56.9! Now it's dropped to 56.1. However, compared to my 2011, my BC is at 86% vs. less than 80% so I still can go 100 miles city and 100 miles freeway at 55 mph actual (58 on speedo.
2013 LEAF SV Del. 2/28/13
2013 LEAF World Record for Most Miles Driven On One Charge-188 miles/8.8 m/kW h
4.8 kW DC PV ($ .91/W fully installed)/ Dec., 2010

Valdemar
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Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:27 pm

Stoaty wrote:
Valdemar wrote:The question remains how much are we willing to pay? I'm not buying for sure given 25%-30% degradation in SoCal after 3 years being "the norm", I'll drive the car until I no longer can and then dispose of it.

Well, if 25-30% is the norm for degradation at 3 years in Southern California, then my conservative charging/driving strategy (17.7% loss, 3 years ownership next week) may be making a significant difference. I am doing better than the Battery Aging Model by 0.5%. The Battery Aging Model projects 6.6 years total until I hit 70% capacity remaining.


I'm slightly worse than what the model predicts (215 gids vs. 218) and expect to lose 25% or more after 3 years in September at 60,000 miles. Given that other people are getting their batteries replaced with fewer miles on their cars around here I suspect I'm doing well.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB)
54.94AHr, SOH 86%, 130k miles
9kW Solar

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JeremyW
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:16 am

I did a drive yesterday afternoon from Pasadena to south Orange County to see family. Usually I would get down to the Spectrum at low battery warning or even better (and going 65 or higher). But yesterday... in heavy traffic (mostly stop and go with a few bursts to 60 mph) I got there in about two hours just over VLBW! :evil:

I'm not sure what has changed. I'm down to 53.8 Ah and 66% Hx, sure, but even my last run down there I wasn't that much better battery wise. I haven't crunched the numbers but the seat of the pants feeling is that I'm down significantly more capacity just over the last few months. Part of that is probably the wheels and tires. Part of it might be I'm hitting a "psychological" threshold. Whatever it is man... it's really starting to suck.

I'm considering getting an old Honda Insight or Prius or something for longer trips. :|
Former 2012 SL leasee 6/23/12 - 9/23/15
Now driving Honda Fit EV, License plate: CHADEMO
2000 Honda Insight for long trips

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drees
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:50 pm

Those tires/wheels are definitely not going to help compared to stock. Have you done the trip since putting on the wheels/tires? What was your mi/kWh for this trip compared to previous trips? How many miles was your trip? Any HVAC?

If traffic was heavy enough to stop frequently, efficiency is worse than traffic where you don't come to a complete stop. Anyway, you made the trip - and the good news is that there are a good number of QCs along the route. Too bad more of them don't bill by the minute, though.
'11 LEAF SL Powered By 3.24 kW Enphase Solar PV

jfiveash
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Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:28 pm

I have a 2012 Leaf SL with 30,500 miles. Capacity/range is clearly down but I have not lost any capacity bars. P3227 update was applied three months ago. GIDs at full charge had been 230s until warmer temperature this month.
Current readings from LeafDD are as follows:

SOC 91%
C 54.4Ahr
H 78.7%
Gids 221

Does it make sense that I have not lost a bar with these readings?
Is there consensus data on bar loss criteria after this P3227 update?

Stoaty
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:51 pm

jfiveash wrote:Current readings from LeafDD are as follows:

SOC 91%
C 54.4Ahr
H 78.7%
Gids 221

Does it make sense that I have not lost a bar with these readings?
Is there consensus data on bar loss criteria after this P3227 update?

There is a lag between the time you hit capacity that should cause loss of a bar and the actual loss. Most lose the first bar around 54-54.5 Ahr. I would be surprised if you didn't lose a bar within 2 months max.
2011 Leaf with 62,000 miles given to Nephew
2013 Tesla Model S85 with 251 miles rated range at full charge
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mkjayakumar
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:12 am

230/281*100 = 81%

That is 19% loss and i would think you should have a lost a bar when you were at 238 Gids at full charge. So not sure why your 12th bar is still sticking.
2011 Leaf, 30K miles, returned after 24 month lease.
Currently leasing 2014 Leaf SV.

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Stanton
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:16 am

mkjayakumar wrote:230/281*100 = 81%

That is 19% loss and i would think you should have a lost a bar when you were at 238 Gids at full charge. So not sure why your 12th bar is still sticking.


I was closer to 220 GIDs when I lost my first bar, but he's definitely "in the neighborhood".
2011 Blue Ocean SV w/floor mats & window tint
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EvansvilleLeaf
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:51 am

THIS IS A DATUM NOT A WHINE

I joined the missing tooth club today.

I suspect some people have babied their Leafs more than I have but not many. 2012 SL Delivery 2/18/12. 14250 miles. Never seen a QC, charged to 100% a half dozen times tops Never seen turtle, VLBW 3 times only. Rarely even LBW! We see >100 and<0 degress exceptionally rarely in a fairly benign SW Indiana microclimate (really - we have significantly different weather even from central IN). I do very little highway driving so >60 maybe 20 times and >70 exactly twice. Lifetime 4.6ml/kWh. About the only no-no I engage in at all is rapid acceleration as I try to pre-emptively dismiss the slow golf cart meme at lights more often than I might.

247 gids fully charged current readings on Spy AHr 55.37 SOH 84% Hx 80.49%.

The car is leased but would still have more than enough miles for my routine for many many years so not a moment's concern for me - just makes me wonder a bit how cautious one must be to slow degradation further than I already have.

GRA
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:32 pm

EvansvilleLeaf wrote:THIS IS A DATUM NOT A WHINE

I joined the missing tooth club today.

<snip details>

The car is leased but would still have more than enough miles for my routine for many many years so not a moment's concern for me - just makes me wonder a bit how cautious one must be to slow degradation further than I already have.

I suspect in your case it's calendar degradation that's getting you, and other than keeping your battery at 35 deg. or so there's not much you can do to slow that.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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