Stanton
Well-known member
MartinChico said:
Just guessing, but I assume this data has been taken over DECLINING temps? What would be more interesting is to see your GID count as the weather WARMS.
Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs
- Thread starter azdre
- Start date
Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:
Just guessing, but I assume this data has been taken over DECLINING temps? What would be more interesting is to see your GID count as the weather WARMS.
MartinChico
Well-known member
Stanton said:
Hmm, good question. The weather here hasn't been changing much, but this last charge was overnight when it was cold--probably in the 30s overnight. I'll try my next few 100% charges during the day when it's warmer--at least in the 60s.
Thanks for pointing this out!
edatoakrun
Well-known member
Martin, Since you live only ~90 miles from me, I can make you an offer impractical for others with LBC-induced capacity anxiety.MartinChico said:
Would it help ease you concerns, if we took a ~100 mile trip (at low speed, on a warm day, of course) in my March 2011 LEAF with 23+% gid loss?
RE your question about initial capacity on another thread:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=17459&start=80" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I doubt you need worry too much.
AVTA tests indicate initial capacity below spec probably was a problem with 2011-12 deliveries (All 2012s tested below spec, with 23.4 kWh on average) but by 2013 MY, the 24.2 kWh average, after ~500 miles use, still exceeded spec.
INL L2 vs DC initial capacity test results after 50k mi+(2012 MY)
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=14271" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
AVTA capacity/range/efficiency tests of four 2013 LEAFs
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=18555" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If anything, the higher production numbers recently, as opposed to 2013, might tend to give you fresher batteries than those delivered years ago.
Of course, you could still have been one of the unlucky ones who got the lower deviation from average.
Hi all - I am hoping somone out there can help me - I have a 2011 Nissan Leaf - It ran great for the first 2 years - I put about 75-100 miles a day on my car - have a level 2 charger in the garage at home and used a trickle cahrger at work. I am located insouth Texas. I lost first battery bar in about the first 3 months - dealer said it was normal! Lost the next one the following summer and then another mid 2014. Since June of 2014 my car can only travel 30 miles on a full charge - same driving conditions as the previous 2 years - it is now getting even worse - can not make it from home to work with out it saying very low battery. Nissan refuses to do anything untill it reads less than 9 battery bars - been sitting at 9 since June. I have 54,000 miles on it. I really like my car but can not drive it due to distance I need to drive. Dealer kept it for a month and said they couldn't find anything wrong!!!! Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated
Thanks
Thanks
TimLee
Well-known member
Did the dealer run the Cell Voltage Loss Inspection (CVLI) test?Imapa said:...Since June of 2014 my car can only travel 30 miles on a full charge - same driving conditions as the previous 2 years - it is now getting even worse - can not make it from home to work with out it saying very low battery. Nissan refuses to do anything untill it reads less than 9 battery bars - been sitting at 9 since June. I have 54,000 miles on it. I really like my car but can not drive it due to distance I need to drive. Dealer kept it for a month and said they couldn't find anything wrong!!!! Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated
Thanks
It could have one or more very weak or defective cell pairs.
Or you can use LEAF Spy Pro to do the test yourself.
Imapa said:Hi all - I am hoping somone out there can help me - I have a 2011 Nissan Leaf - It ran great for the first 2 years - I put about 75-100 miles a day on my car - have a level 2 charger in the garage at home and used a trickle cahrger at work. I am located insouth Texas. I lost first battery bar in about the first 3 months - dealer said it was normal! Lost the next one the following summer and then another mid 2014. Since June of 2014 my car can only travel 30 miles on a full charge - same driving conditions as the previous 2 years - it is now getting even worse - can not make it from home to work with out it saying very low battery. Nissan refuses to do anything untill it reads less than 9 battery bars - been sitting at 9 since June. I have 54,000 miles on it. I really like my car but can not drive it due to distance I need to drive. Dealer kept it for a month and said they couldn't find anything wrong!!!! Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated
Thanks
If you lost your 3rd bar back in June and only have 54,000 miles then its highly likely that you'll lose the 4th bar before you hit 60,000. Based on my experience, the 4th bar dropped well before 10,000 miles. I live in San Diego and the temperature here likely to be not as hot as in South Texas. If you lose the 4th bar after 60,000, then you'll be in the same situation as I am in. I'm currently working with Nissan, but my hopes are not very high.
keydiver
Well-known member
Imapa said:
What is your purchase date? The only thing you can hope for is getting 8 bars before you hit 5 years/60,000 miles. If you have read any of the dozens of threads on here about the battery degradation issue, you will find that initially Nissan did not provide any capacity warranty. But, at the prodding of a class action suit, they will replace your battery with a new 2015 battery with improved chemistry if you drop below 9 bars before 5 years/60,000 miles. If you can't wait, you can buy the battery for ~$6000.
davewill
Well-known member
A nine-bar car should be getting 50 miles, not 30. The only ways, outside of some sort of fault, I could see you causing you to get only 30 miles of range would be either excessive cold combined with running the heater all the time, excessive speed (85mph perhaps) maybe combined with heater usage, or a big change in altitude (unlikely in S. Texas). What kind of efficiency number are you getting (miles per kWh)? Barring some explanation like the above, you are getting a very subpar range, and THAT should be covered. I'd escalate, and shout from the rooftops until someone at Nissan takes notice.Imapa said:... Since June of 2014 my car can only travel 30 miles on a full charge - same driving conditions as the previous 2 years - it is now getting even worse - can not make it from home to work with out it saying very low battery. Nissan refuses to do anything untill it reads less than 9 battery bars - been sitting at 9 since June. I have 54,000 miles on it. I really like my car but can not drive it due to distance I need to drive. Dealer kept it for a month and said they couldn't find anything wrong!!!! Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated
Thanks
edatoakrun
Well-known member
Imapa said:
The good news, is that IF you do drive it, you will almost certainly win the lottery, and qualify for a replacement under the warrantee.
It appears likely, IMO, that the kWh available below VLB increases over time, charge cycles, and/or after LBC-reported capacity loss-that is capacity bar loss.
With one capacity bar lost last summer, and ~27,000 miles, my LEAF had ~16 miles (low speed, ~22 mph) left from VLB to turtle in a range test, which I estimate was then ~2.2 kWh, or ~12% of my LEAFs total 100%-to-turtle available capacity.
You probably have at least ~six to 18 level miles available after VLB, depending on your speed and ambient temperature.
If you test drove your LEAF all the way down to turtle, would knowing that you still had ~ that amount of range left, give you enough confidence to keep driving?
Remember, your present "30 mile range" will soon increase significantly, courtesy of Spring.
Stoaty
Well-known member
Since VLB is generally considered to occur when 2 kwh is left, you had an extra 0.2 kwh, which the way most people drive is about 1 mile. Not much of a change. Also, if you are getting 16 miles from 2.2 kwh of energy that means would be 7.27 miles per kwh, energy efficiency that not even the most careful hypermiler can normally reach.edatoakrun said:
Conclusion: based on your own data there is no evidence that energy available from VLB to turtle increases significantly with aging of the battery.
edatoakrun
Well-known member
Stoaty, would you please correct the more obvious errors you have made in the statement above, so that tomorrow (if time permits) I will only have to correct the less obvious ones?Stoaty said:
drees said:
I am not Ed, but here are some charging energy from the wall measurements from shutdown to full charge for my 2011 at the time the battery was replaced. I have a revenue-accuracy meter feeding my AeroVironment EVSE at home. Nominal voltage is 240, but the actual voltage at the EVSE is usually slightly higher (242 to 248). In each case, climate control was used in the driveway until the main contactor opened.
10/2/2013 17.73 kWh
10/3/2013 18.22 kWh
10/4/2013 24.96 kWh
10/5/2013 24.66 kWh
There were 8 capacity bars before battery replacement and, of course, 12 bars with the new battery.
Thanks,
Gerry
RegGuheert
Well-known member
That's good data, Gerry! Thanks!
If I average the first two results and divide them by the second two results, I get the result that your old battery accepted 72.5% as much energy as the new one which replaced it.
...and it appears you lost the capacity of the old battery in just a bit over two years.
Since your battery was replaced back in 2013, I'm guessing your new battery is also degrading quickly. Will Nissan be replacing this new battery with a better one, as Andy Palmer had indicated they would during one of the Phoenix meetings?
If I average the first two results and divide them by the second two results, I get the result that your old battery accepted 72.5% as much energy as the new one which replaced it.
...and it appears you lost the capacity of the old battery in just a bit over two years.
Since your battery was replaced back in 2013, I'm guessing your new battery is also degrading quickly. Will Nissan be replacing this new battery with a better one, as Andy Palmer had indicated they would during one of the Phoenix meetings?
edatoakrun
Well-known member
RegGuheert said:
Correct, but it also indicates nearly 3% short term variation in the charge accepted, in a sample of only two, indicating that 72.5% has a significant uncertainty.
edit: I have seen the discharge allowed by my LBC to vary (following charge sessions at ~ the same battery temperatures, and separated by only a few weeks) up to ~6%, in nominal kWh use from "100%" to VLBW, using a sample of ~thirty range capacity tests.
So I strongly suspect you would see similar, larger variation in charge accepted, in a larger sample size using the total available capacity, as Gerry did.
Gerry, do you have the LBC calculations of your pack's available capacity ("SOH") to compare with the actual ~72.5%, average difference, from the four charge sessions ?
If not, did you test your old pack right after losing the ninth bar, and if not, ~about what was the time (during which month) and miles driven, that passed before you metered your old pack capacity?
edatoakrun
Well-known member
You can calculate that average yourself from the various AVTA reports (see links I posted on the previous page of this thread) and also find the ratio of average charge accepted/total (static) kWh capacity, again, with precision limited by AVTA sample sizes.drees said:
Which would give Gerry a pretty good idea of his replacement pack's initial static capacity, or anyone else with multiple stop-to-100% charge data, the same at any stage of battery life.
I have done both, using the AVTA reports, but don't have the figures at hand.
Not very helpful for me in calculating my LEAF's capacity accurately, since I only have taken my LEAF to turtle once.
IMO, there is no trick to find your average available capacity at any time, if you are willing and to discharge from 100% to stop multiple times over a short time period
I think however, you may be able get almost as accurate data by comparing your LEAFs driving and recharge efficiency against the actual AVTA test results, to find what appears may be a common error in your LEAFs reported kWh, and the LBC report of percentage capacity remaining.
Which is what I have done.
Stoaty
Well-known member
Still waiting to see the results of your "new math".edatoakrun said:
RegGuheert said:
Unfortunately, Nissan will not have to replace the battery in Silver 679 from the Phoenix range test again. I was hit from behind while stopped for a red light on January 4 and the other driver's insurance company has declared it a total loss. I am very impressed with the crash protection of the LEAF and I will post some more detailed battery data when I have time to compile it. I have a 2015 SL on order so I should have some good battery comparison data in a year or so.
Gerry
What I've seen is a lot of handwaving saying that the LBC is reporting significantly more capacity loss than what you say has actually occurred. Yet you yourself are only using range tests and LBC reported efficiency data.edatoakrun said:
Thanks Gerry, that's awesome data. It looks like +- 0.5 kWh is to be expected. Based on variances in energy to charge from 80-100% that I've seen, I'd guess that the charge to 100% is where most of the variation is.GerryAZ said:
So with my car reporting 51.1 Ah or about 78-79% of a new 65 Ah, I should expect 19.0-19.5 kWh from the wall to recharge my LEAF from turtle to 100%. Based on my from-the-wall efficiency numbers, this is right in line with the range I project to get if I turtled the car. I'll try to run a few tests to collect this data when I can.
RegGuheert
Well-known member
I'm very sorry to hear that!GerryAZ said:
I hope that means that everyone was OK. I'll be interested to see your data when you post it. Thanks!GerryAZ said:
Hopefully the 2015 will provide much better battery life than your 2011. It will be interesting to see how that one holds up.GerryAZ said:
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