How much better is MY2015 heater, battery, etc, than MY2012?

Hello,

We bought a 2012 LEAF several years ago and while it's been a pretty good car, we've recently really started to notice a loss in battery capacity. We lost our first bar a couple of weeks ago and even though the temperatures are still in the 80's and lower 90's, we are using much more of the battery on a daily basis than I'm comfortable with because I know when winter rolls around that we'll use a lot more than that. Frequently, after a usual day we'll use 10 bars, and it isn't even cold out yet. I actually worry that our 2012 will not be able to make the hilly ~30 mile round trip to work (plus any side trips) when it is cold. I've used Stoaty's spreadsheet, etc, but I don't think I'll be eligible for a warranty replacement anytime soon, and with losing ~5% capacity each year, the car is becoming less and less useable.

So, long story shorter, we are looking at trading in the 2012 for a 2015 with the upgraded heater (SV or SL, preferably the SV with QC port and 6.6Kw charger). We really, really want to stick with a plugin and were hoping to be able to hold out for the 2016 with the larger battery (or even the rumored plugin Rogue in a couple of years) but there are some local deals that are very compelling and would leave us with roughly the same payment as we are paying currently.

So my questions are:

1) How much better is the hybrid heater in the new LEAFs versus the old style heater from 2011/2012? Besides using a heat pump, I know that there is more insulation, etc, but is there a lot of real world improvements? Does it heat more efficiently than the older style LEAFs near freezing and below or just in moderate winter temperatures? We do live in CO and have a plugin hybrid (Volt) for when it is really too cold for the LEAF, but I'd rather not have to rely on that too much.

2) Do we have any sense of how much more heat tolerant the 2015 battery is over the previous generations (especially the 2011/2012)? I suspect that there is a substantial improvement in tolerance, but I've been overwhelmed trying to find, read, and compare new owner's experiences vs old owners. Has it also been determined that all 2015's are the new "lizard" type battery?

Thanks a lot for any help!

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=11348

There's a chart (a bit small) in Reddy's post showing efficiency vs. temperature of the resistive heater and the heat pump. The heat pump will give you an advantage above about 15 deg. F.

BoulderLeaf said:

2) Do we have any sense of how much more heat tolerant the 2015 battery is over the previous generations (especially the 2011/2012)? I suspect that there is a substantial improvement in tolerance, but I've been overwhelmed trying to find, read, and compare new owner's experiences vs old owners. Has it also been determined that all 2015's are the new "lizard" type battery?

Thanks a lot for any help!

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GRA linked you to the thread about the heater/AC.

As to the question on the battery

A. all 2015's have the new battery chemistry

B. none of them have seen enough summers for us to know if the new chemistry is stable or handles heat better than the old or how much of an improvement it is (assuming it is improved).

C. to answer that you'd have to wait for 2-3 more years for reports to come in and by then higher capacity BEVs will be out that will make you not care what the longevity of the 2015 Leaf is (think 30 kWh or larger battery pack in a Leaf, Tesla Model 3, and all the also rans)

Late 2015: We're just this summer in 2015 seeing the first reports of bars lost on 2013 packs. Opinions on 2013 battery packs are varied and it'll take 2016s data to settle the issue. Odds are no 2014s will report bar loss in 2015.

Late 2016: Next summer (late 2016) we'll have good data on 2013 packs and probably be seeing the first few 2014s trickle in. Odds are no 2015s will report bar loss in 2016 (barring some unforeseen regression in stability of the new chemistry).

Late 2017: The 2013 pack data will be solidified and analysation will stagnate. Still in 2017 people will be pouring over the 2014 data as by then we'll have some losers for sure. We might have 2015 data at that point but only if it is bad news (very likely no news is good news will be the case at that point).

Late 2018: The 2014 pack data will still be rolling in and dissected. 2015 data will increase but no telling what news it will be. 2016 pack data might start to roll in if there is bad news.

and so on...

I'm a year into the '15 and really glad I didn't buy out the '12's lease. Not only delivers better range on all our usual routes, year round, but LeafSpy reports the battery "resets" to it's original values, at least so far.

If you can get a smokin' deal on a '15, and now's the time, you really should. You won't get the same offer on a '16, and your range needs are still pretty low.

+1 on the smoking deals right now! I just bought a 2015 S + charge package at SF Nissan. I offered 27K (5K off MSRP) and they accepted without haggling. After the NMAC rebate & tax etc, it was 25K out the door, so, by next year's tax return I will have bought a new car for 15K.

How much is 20 more highway miles worth to you? (That's probably what the 2016 upgrade will amount to.) How much do you think the dealer will be willing to discount a brand new model after bleeding on the old models for a month or two?

I don't know how "real" this deal is, but they've got a black SV marked down to 25,500. After Fed/CO rebates, that would be a $12K car.

Call Nigel there and see if they can hook you up. Looks like they've got quite a few on the lot and it is the end of the month!

AlanSqB said:

I don't know how "real" this deal is, but they've got a black SV marked down to 25,500. After Fed/CO rebates, that would be a $12K car.

Call Nigel there and see if they can hook you up. Looks like they've got quite a few on the lot and it is the end of the month!

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Watch out for the "Base" SV. It will still have the hybrid heater but will lack the Bose stereo, All Around View cameras, and even floor mats. There aren't a lot of them built, but dealers like to use them as the basis for a low advertised price, with the more typical SV with premium package running a lot more.

I don't know that you need to "watch out" for a SV without premium package, it's not like it's a dirty trick they are pulling. I recently was searching for an SV with quick charge in a used 2013+, I did not see any extra value for myself, in the Bose/Camera package. If I found one it was a bonus, but I had a hard enough time finding an SV with QC in my price range, and the only ones I found that had QC and premium were in black, and I would rather have a lighter color than the premium package. As long as you know what you are getting, that is what matters.

Firetruck41 said:

I don't know that you need to "watch out" for a SV without premium package, it's not like it's a dirty trick they are pulling. I recently was searching for an SV with quick charge in a used 2013+, I did not see any extra value for myself, in the Bose/Camera package. If I found one it was a bonus, but I had a hard enough time finding an SV with QC in my price range, and the only ones I found that had QC and premium were in black, and I would rather have a lighter color than the premium package. As long as you know what you are getting, that is what matters.

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I meant that the dealers will price a Base SV far below the other SVs, and use ads with that price to get people into the showroom, only to find - usually, as most people do want the Premium Package - that the car they actually thought they were getting is far more expensive. It isn't as if they usually try to make it clear in the ads that this is a stripped version, and they will probably only have one as well, or maybe two if the dealership is large. It's a trick that's been used for generations, and it's the main reason the stripped models of all brands exist, because they want to sell options as well as cars, but also want to be able to advertise a very low price...

Thanks for the information all!

We test drove one yesterday and it feels much better and more refined in every way than our 2012. There is also a it more leg / occupant room, which is nice.

Also, we got a 2 hour tests drive where we could drive home form the dealer and back. And, even though it was ~90 degrees, performed much better than the 2012. I'm encouraged by the (initial) reports of better battery performance, too.

We've decided to trade in our 2012 for a 2015 SV with LED and QC package (not premium package). While it would be nice to have the premium package, we don't think it's necessary and probably not worth the few thousand more. Boulder Nissan is offering the SV with this package right now for $25.5K out the door (as is another dealership), but Nigel and crew came through with a better trade in offer. Plus, the are awesome, courteous folks and engaged in the community. Also included is 2 years of the No-Charge-To-Charge program, and 0% financing.

Thanks everyone!

One thing to keep in mind: If you live in a climate where you primarily use AC and not heat, the heat pump system on the 2013+ is actually less efficient by about 20%.

TomT said:

One thing to keep in mind: If you live in a climate where you primarily use AC and not heat, the heat pump system on the 2013+ is actually less efficient by about 20%.

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Ah, I was noticing that during the test drive. I saw the power usage was a bit higher than in our 2012, but it seemed to get colder too.

In any case, I'm not worried about the AC as much as the heater - especially given the fact that the battery capacity is higher in the summer.

Thanks for that though!

TomT said:

where you primarily use AC and not heat, the heat pump system on the 2013+ is actually less efficient by about 20%.

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Do you know what aspect of the refrigeration cycle is tuned differently in the heat pump which results in the decreased cooling efficiency?

Cheers, Wayne

wwhitney said:

TomT said:

where you primarily use AC and not heat, the heat pump system on the 2013+ is actually less efficient by about 20%.

Click to expand...

Do you know what aspect of the refrigeration cycle is tuned differently in the heat pump which results in the decreased cooling efficiency?

Cheers, Wayne

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There is no significant difference in efficiency (cooling mode) between the 2011 and 2015. My 2015 does take a bit more energy to cool than the 2011 because the black leather interior and black dash absorb a lot of heat when parked in a parking lot in Phoenix. The energy use for cooling is much lower after the sun goes down even though the temperature is still over 100 F. Also, the 2015 blows colder air than the 2011 did and I suspect the HVAC energy use screen is more accurate on the 2015. Heating mode is way more efficient on the 2015 and the controls allow the heat to be turned off while still having ventilation. Also, I have not yet seen the heater come on while the A/C is on like the 2011 did sometimes with moderate outdoor temperatures. I do miss a couple of things from the 2011: The electric parking brake and the higher torque of the traction motor.

Although it is really too soon to tell, the 2015 battery seems to be holding its capacity much better than the original and replacement batteries in the 2011.

Boulder Leaf: Enjoy your new car!

Cheers,
Gerry

I have read here that the heatpump system doesn't have a certain expensive reversing valve setup that would allow it to be as efficient as the A/C only models. I can't personally address the efficiency difference because I only have a heatpump-equipped Leaf, but there does seem to be a (near) consensus that the heatpump does use more power in A/C mode than the A/C-only systems, and the reason seems to be savings in production costs.

Correct. When I was in Phoenix I discussed this with the engineers there and was told that they did not use a proportional valve due to the significant added cost. They told us that this caused about a 20% drop in AC efficiency over the earlier system in the 2011-2012. Since I almost never use heat but often use AC, this works for me!

LeftieBiker said:

I have read here that the heatpump system doesn't have a certain expensive reversing valve setup that would allow it to be as efficient as the A/C only models.

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Thanks for the feedback everyone!

We picked up the 2015 last night, and love it so far. More room, better handling, faster charging, etc. And a great price for a mid-level SV with LED headlights and QC port. $25.5K, before tax incentives, and at 0% for 72 months. I'm eager to see how it performs in the winter.