First battery capacity bar loss at 23k miles, bummed...

My 12' Leaf was made in May of 12, purchased by me in Oct of 12. It sat, I think, at 100% charge on the dealer lot from June to Oct of 12. It was hot in KC that Summer.

Since then, I have been a pretty careful owner. Perhaps charged to 100% 10 times in 2 years, and those times, immediately left for a longer trip. We have no QC here, so that has never happened....

Otherwise, 80% charge. Commute involves some highway time, so my overall miles per Kwh is 3.9 The vehicle usually sits for perhaps 10 hours at 80% charge, since I usually plug in at about 6 PM on return from work and leave at 6AM. I played with setting timer to charge later at night, and had it set that way over Summer months, but switched back to immediate charging a few weeks ago, once the battery temp got back to 5 bars.

I do not think I have ever seen 7 temp bars. Usually 6 in the summer, 5 in spring and fall and 2-4 in the heart of the winter. I park in an attached, insulated garage at home, and in a covered parking structure at work....

Looking over the various models, I was hoping that I was going to do better that this, but alas, I really fear the dealer behavior in the first 4 months of battery life was damaging....

The reason I believe the Leaf was charged 100% is that the salesman bragged to me that they were keeping the batteries healthy by keeping them charged to 100%. Idiots....

Would you all agree???

I may be in the minority here, but isn't 2 years and 23K miles pretty good for first capacity bar loss?

Sorry CD, but I think the age of batteries was more of an issue than the time spent at 100%. My 2012 was effectively same build as yours and lost my first bar at 27k back in August and never sat on dealer lot for more than a week since they had to order it and I had to wait 4 long weeks for it to ship from Japan. It's not the miles it's the age. We'll see if Stoaty agrees but the battery degradation chart has KC cars loosing first bar @~24 months. IIRC Eric lost his first bar at the end of Sep and he got his 2012 just a few days before I got mine. This really puts you right on track with the rest of us. I expect Kathy will be next to post any minute now.

It's a bummer for sure when it happens but that's just a visual representation of what you've been seeing/feeling every day. You weren't at 100% and then suddenly at 85% but rather 85.9% and now 84.9%. BTW, I do agree the dealer was charging to 100%. I've been in contact with my salesman quite a few times over the last two years and he's always asking how the car is doing and what I've learned and what they can be doing better at the dealer.

I'm up here in Michigan. Never quick charged. First 1.5 years I religiously charged to 80%. After that, almost all 100% charges due to requiring the extra range at the time. I lost my first bar at just over 2 years and 31,000 miles. Now things have settled down and I've moved closer to work, but winter is approaching and I'm seeing seasonal range loss creep back into play, so I'm back to charging to 100% again.

Losing 15% capacity in 2 years sucks, and knowing that everyone else is in pretty much the same boat doesn't make it any less disappointing. LEAFs battery is the worst part about this car. There's little we can do about it except avoid buying a Nissan next time.

However, you should calculate how much money you saved by not paying for gas in those 23,000 miles, then compare that to the cost of a new battery pack. You might find it's less of a disappointment than you think.

Slow1 said:

I may be in the minority here, but isn't 2 years and 23K miles pretty good for first capacity bar loss?

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It depends on many factors. We lost the first bar at over 45000 miles. For some reason it does not feel good. But like it was said, it did not drop all in one day. Actually I was at 84% SOH early this year, then as the weather warmed up it went to 86%. Now that it cooled down, it is back t 84% SOH but it took a bar with the change.

While the dealer keeping it charged at 100% might be a contributing factor, I would say you would have lost your first bar anyway around this this time. It is not just the miles or charge cycles, but simply the fact that your car has seen two summers is the primary overriding reason.

kubel said:

<snip>
However, you should calculate how much money you saved by not paying for gas in those 23,000 miles, then compare that to the cost of a new battery pack. You might find it's less of a disappointment than you think.

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I have been tracking my costs....

28,000 miles/25 mpg that I was getting (Escort ZX2 paid for) = 1120 gallons x $3.50/gallon = 3920 - 2 years of electricity $652 = $3268 savings.

Cost of new 2012 Leaf SV - $38k, Cost of my son's new 2013 Corrola S $22k (IIRC) = difference $16k. Math doesn't add up. Still, EV beats ICE any day by my book for reasons other than 'savings'.

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edit...misread Kubel's message - .... $3268 savings against the $5500 new pack...gets close to a wash when the time's right.

mkjayakumar said:

While the dealer keeping it charged at 100% might be a contributing factor, I would say you would have lost your first bar anyway around this this time. It is not just the miles or charge cycles, but simply the fact that your car has seen two summers is the primary overriding reason.

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3 Summers

ksnogas2112 said:

kubel said:

<snip>
However, you should calculate how much money you saved by not paying for gas in those 23,000 miles, then compare that to the cost of a new battery pack. You might find it's less of a disappointment than you think.

Click to expand...

I have been tracking my costs....

28,000 miles/25 mpg that I was getting (Escort ZX2 paid for) = 1120 gallons x $3.50/gallon = 3920 - 2 years of electricity $652 = $3268 savings.

Cost of new 2012 Leaf SV - $38k, Cost of my son's new 2013 Corrola S $22k (IIRC) = difference $16k. Math doesn't add up. Still, EV beats ICE any day by my book for reasons other than 'savings'.

.....................

edit...misread Kubel's message - .... $3268 savings against the $5500 new pack...gets close to a wash when the time's right.

Click to expand...

But that is a corolla. Who wants to drive one of those things?!?!?

cdherman said:

mkjayakumar said:

While the dealer keeping it charged at 100% might be a contributing factor, I would say you would have lost your first bar anyway around this this time. It is not just the miles or charge cycles, but simply the fact that your car has seen two summers is the primary overriding reason.

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3 Summers

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Well, not that are not tons of data points already for Leafs, but I still am following my numbers. Have LeafSpy now. Today was one of the first days of Fall where one can say in Kansas City that the Summer is over. Temp bars are down to 5, even after charges.

Now, 40 months from manufacture, 4 Kansas City Summers, including the first Summer of charges to 100% the whole time, and 31,500 miles, I am at 81% capacity.

Given that I lost the first bar, therefore arrived at 85% capacity 11 months ago, the curve is indeed flattening. Only 4% loss in 11 months and 8.5k miles. Have now indulged in the perilous QuickCharge 2 times!

Pretty likely that I (and most Leafs) in Kansas City will make it to 60 months or 60k miles with over 70% Guess I should be happy, but a part of me was hoping for a battery replacement......

ksnogas2112 said:

I have been tracking my costs....

28,000 miles/25 mpg that I was getting (Escort ZX2 paid for) = 1120 gallons x $3.50/gallon = 3920 - 2 years of electricity $652 = $3268 savings.

Cost of new 2012 Leaf SV - $38k, Cost of my son's new 2013 Corrola S $22k (IIRC) = difference $16k. Math doesn't add up. Still, EV beats ICE any day by my book for reasons other than 'savings'.

.....................

edit...misread Kubel's message - .... $3268 savings against the $5500 new pack...gets close to a wash when the time's right.

Click to expand...

Your math is a little disingenuous. First off you will be hard pressed to find a Leaf for that price on a 2013-15 models. Yes, sure in 2012 the highest trim was $38K, but soon the prices settled down around $30-$32K within a year or so. And then, you completely left off $7500 Fed rebate and possibly some state rebates too averaging around $2K.

So someone who bought a Leaf for $30K in 2013-15 model year, would have effectively paid only $22K or less after all the rebates. and so in 2 years their cost of ownership is $22,652, whereas the Corolla cost is $25,920 or close $26K if you factor in the oil changes. Leaf clearly wins by a big margin in just two years.

ksnogas2112 said:

I have been tracking my costs....

28,000 miles/25 mpg that I was getting (Escort ZX2 paid for) = 1120 gallons x $3.50/gallon = 3920 - 2 years of electricity $652 = $3268 savings.

Cost of new 2012 Leaf SV - $38k, Cost of my son's new 2013 Corrola S $22k (IIRC) = difference $16k. Math doesn't add up. Still, EV beats ICE any day by my book for reasons other than 'savings'...

Click to expand...

So you received no federal tax credit or state rebate on the purchase of the Leaf? My math comes out quite differently, with $7500 Fed tax credit and $5000 CA state rebate (now down to $2500, unfortunately) factored in. Our 2011 Leaf SL was $37K out the door, including tax and license fees, less $12,500 savings from tax credit/rebate = $24.5K total cost, only $2.5K more than your son's Corolla. Since we also received a free EVSE plus installation as part of the Ecotality project, there was no additional cost involved with going electric, and besides the gas savings over 4.5 years of use, we have not paid for the usual routine ICE maintenance (oil changes, air filters, spark plugs, timing belt, etc.), which would have just about equaled the $2,5K differential in cost compared to the Corolla. So after 4 years, it's pretty much been a wash for us, and we have been able to drive a nicer car with zero emissions the whole time.

We did have to convert a portion of an IRA account to a Roth in order to qualify for the full Federal tax credit, but I consider that another bonus in the overall transaction, as that money can still grow tax-free, be withdrawn tax-free after 5 years, and is not subject to the minimum distribution requirement at age 70-1/2.
YMMV,
TT

ttweed said:

ksnogas2112 said:

I have been tracking my costs....

28,000 miles/25 mpg that I was getting (Escort ZX2 paid for) = 1120 gallons x $3.50/gallon = 3920 - 2 years of electricity $652 = $3268 savings.

Cost of new 2012 Leaf SV - $38k, Cost of my son's new 2013 Corrola S $22k (IIRC) = difference $16k. Math doesn't add up. Still, EV beats ICE any day by my book for reasons other than 'savings'...

Click to expand...

So you received no federal tax credit or state rebate on the purchase of the Leaf? My math comes out quite differently, with $7500 Fed tax credit and $5000 CA state rebate (now down to $2500, unfortunately) factored in. Our 2011 Leaf SL was $37K out the door, including tax and license fees, less $12,500 savings from tax credit/rebate = $24.5K total cost, only $2.5K more than your son's Corolla. Since we also received a free EVSE plus installation as part of the Ecotality project, there was no additional cost involved with going electric, and besides the gas savings over 4.5 years of use, we have not paid for the usual routine ICE maintenance (oil changes, air filters, spark plugs, timing belt, etc.), which would have just about equaled the $2,5K differential in cost compared to the Corolla. So after 4 years, it's pretty much been a wash for us, and we have been able to drive a nicer car with zero emissions the whole time.

We did have to convert a portion of an IRA account to a Roth in order to qualify for the full Federal tax credit, but I consider that another bonus in the overall transaction, as that money can still grow tax-free, be withdrawn tax-free after 5 years, and is not subject to the minimum distribution requirement at age 70-1/2.
YMMV,
TT

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All of these discussions of total cost are missing one very large factor in total cost of ownership: Depreciation. If you factor that in, all of the early Leafs (and probably all Leafs in general thus far) that people bought outright are deep underwater compared to a similarly priced ICE or even a Volt.

I have seen 2012 Leafs for $12,000 on lots here in KC. Assuming that in KC a Leaf in 2012 was about $25,000, that's $13,000 of value lost in 3 years. That's far far more depreciation than a Focus or Corolla would experience.

Now, of course, if you keep your vehicles 10 years, till both vehicles are approaching the end of their lives, the depreciation will catch up in the Focus. In fact, it just might be that a 10 year old Focus will be worth less than a 10 year old Leaf. But that a lot of speculation....

Now, you can discount depreciation and say that for you personally, it doesn't matter since you intend to keep the car a long time. But that's not proper accounting and you cannot make a coherent case that TODAY, a Leaf is a sound investment if only viewed from a $$ and cents standpoint. Its not. But its got lots of value in ways that go beyond pure accounting.

Yeah, depreciation is a difficult beast to properly account for. When calculating your TCO, depreciation only matters when you are selling / trading in your car. So for one person that may be 5 years. For another it may be 10. It totally changes the value equation.

If you can make a 2012 Leaf work for 10 years for you on the original battery (accounting for battery degradation), there is no way that a Focus or a Corolla will have a lower TCO over that 10 years, even if the Leaf depreciates to zero (which it won't). If you factor in one battery replacement, my gut tells me it will be very close between the two.

All of these reasons is why I bought the cheapest LEAF I could. A 2015 S with a QC package. Given all the rebates and incentives, I walked out of there at less than $17K for a brand new car. Even if my depreciation tanks, and I do think that there's a limit to that, I can likely drive the car for 3-4 years with very little expense. Give gas savings I will probably break even if I sell the car at $12.5K, even if I have to sell it for less, it would be pretty inexpensive to own compared to an ICE car. Had I gotten an SV or an SL, breaking even would have been more difficult because they would have depreciated at a much greater rate compared to their new prices. A new SL may cost $5K more than a new S with a QC package, but you'll be lucky to recover $1K of that on a used Leaf.

The reason I think there's a limit to the Leaf depreciation is that I think decreasing battery costs and the end of tax credits will make used ones much more compelling. Let's say that its 2019 or 2020 and you can buy a 24kwh pack (or maybe a 30kwh if Nissan lets you), for between $4-5K, even a 9 bar Leaf could still fetch $8K used (especially a 2013 or newer model). The installation of a new pack would bring new life to the car at a very reasonable cost of ownership. Also once the federal tax credits expire, you could see the price of used Leafs get a bit of a bump. Lease costs would increase as well because the leasing companies wouldn't be able to get the tax credits either.

Wonderful to read posts from optimists -- I am not one. But I also am pretty dedicated to do my part....

There will not be cheap battery packs for old Leafs (at least not from Nissan) -- by then, those old Leafs will be a tiny component of a (hopefully) large EV industry. In parts of the country, there might be enough old Leafs that some enterprising DYI places might make a few bucks swapping out bad cells for decent ones from wrecked Leafs, but the nirvana dream of Nissan producing an affordable replacement battery pack, especially one with increased range is just a pipe dream.

Please do stop inhaling for a moment and realize that Nissan (and all manufacturers) make there $$$ selling a new car. Just why would they support old vehicles beyond whatever they are contractually required to do? Like -- Not happening.......

cdherman said:

All of these discussions of total cost are missing one very large factor in total cost of ownership: Depreciation. If you factor that in, all of the early Leafs (and probably all Leafs in general thus far) that people bought outright are deep underwater compared to a similarly priced ICE or even a Volt....you cannot make a coherent case that TODAY, a Leaf is a sound investment if only viewed from a $$ and cents standpoint. Its not. But its got lots of value in ways that go beyond pure accounting.

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I don't believe this is true. You can buy a 2011 Corolla LE that cost $22K for $12K today. That's $10K in depreciation in 4 years. I could likely sell my 2011 Leaf for $8.5K tomorrow and I would realize a $16K depreciation loss. The $6K difference between the two would be totally covered by the fuel and maintenance cost savings over those 4 years, so it is basically a wash.

No car is an investment except for collectible examples (which are usually not driven at all). For daily transportation, the overall cost per mile for driving the Leaf can be very comparable to most ICE cohorts when held for as little as 4-5 years, in my experience. I would guess the same would be true for buying one of the 2015 S cars on sale right now, as mentioned above. At $17K, you could keep it 5 years and sell it for $7K and equal the depreciation of a Corolla.
YMMV,
TT

ttweed said:

I could likely sell my 2011 Leaf for $8.5K tomorrow and I would realize a $16K depreciation loss.

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Please try and report back. For now we can file this statement under 'wishful thinking'.

Valdemar said:

ttweed said:

I could likely sell my 2011 Leaf for $8.5K tomorrow and I would realize a $16K depreciation loss.

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Please try and report back. For now we can file this statement under 'wishful thinking'.

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I just bought a blue SL with QC and 53k on it for $7.9k so I don't think that's too far off. Mine has 9 bars and a good chance at getting a free pack unlike ttweed, but I don't think market prices are taking that much into account.

Dyna said:

Valdemar said:

ttweed said:

I could likely sell my 2011 Leaf for $8.5K tomorrow and I would realize a $16K depreciation loss.

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Please try and report back. For now we can file this statement under 'wishful thinking'.

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I just bought a blue SL with QC and 53k on it for $7.9k so I don't think that's too far off. Mine has 9 bars and a good chance at getting a free pack unlike ttweed, but I don't think market prices are taking that much into account.

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Are you sure you didn't overpay? I suppose it depends on the local market, but based on the dealer auction prices in the corresponding thread it seems like a 2013 with a lower mileage can be had for not much more.