I am looking at a 2011 nissan leaf SL with 28k miles in cali to ship to vegas. the kbb value for those specs are 12k fair and 13k good. people are asking high 14k or in the 15's. why are private owners clueless about what this car is worth. you can buy a new one after the 7500 for 20k. its seems to be a real problem with this particular car. i cant find one owner that is pricing it accordingly like a corolla or accord. are people on this board getting alot more than kbb value when you sell.
Question about delusional resale values
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Randy
Well-known member
I don't think you can buy a comparable SL model for $20K after the fed tax credit...If you want a stripped down S model without some of the SL features, fine...As long as you understand which features are missing...
My SL is just over 3 years old with 26K miles, and I wouldn't sell it for even $15K (even if KBB says it is worth less). I drive the car almost every day and enjoy it very much...
Seems to me that the key to you being able to purchase an SL for less is the state of the battery capacity bars...If you're willing to accept one with fewer bars remaining, then you might be able to get it for the price you're seeking...But not for one that is in better condition...
My SL is just over 3 years old with 26K miles, and I wouldn't sell it for even $15K (even if KBB says it is worth less). I drive the car almost every day and enjoy it very much...
Seems to me that the key to you being able to purchase an SL for less is the state of the battery capacity bars...If you're willing to accept one with fewer bars remaining, then you might be able to get it for the price you're seeking...But not for one that is in better condition...
Valdemar
Well-known member
Sounds like KBB is wrong then? Gas prices are on the rise, it will likely increase the demand for these cars with limited supply so you might have difficult time finding what you consider to be a good deal. The new price you mentioned is for the S trim which is a stripper, the SL will cost you about 25k after the federal rebate. 14k is very reasonable IMO if the battery is in good shape, no accidents, etc.
im a little confused. isnt the 2014 s model still better than a 2011 sl as far as technology goes.3 years is a eternity in the technology world. didnt they fix the battery degrading problem with the 2014 model. the 2014 has better range than the 2011. what does the 2011 sl have that makes it better than the 2014 S model. does the 2014 s have a quick charge standard. also, they dont seem to be selling because the ads have been up there for a while now.
Valdemar said:
how is kbb wrong. they are supposed to reflect actual selling prices across the nation. i dont know if they use auction prices and then mark up the price from there to get a private party value. they cant just make it up.
cwerdna
Well-known member
Not really.... The S trim level introduced w/the '13 model year is a stripper model. It has only a black interior, no cruise control, no nav, no Carwings (so no telematics), a cheaper 4-speaker stereo, knobs for the HVAC and cheap steel wheels w/plastic wheel covers.evboy said:
All Leafs SV and SL and above (including '11 and '12) come w/nav, cruise control, Carwings, at least a 6-speaker stereo and alloy wheels.
And from http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=359428#p359428" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=14222" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, the cheaper stereo in the S doesn't have Bluetooth A2DP music streaming.
I have the '13 SV w/Bose stereo (via premium package), so I have A2DP (and I use it). I believe all '11 and '12 Leafs (since they were only SL and SV w/nav) have it.
S only has halogen headlights. I recall that the '11 and '12 SV and SL came w/LED headlights. On the '13+ SV, you to get LED headlights, you needed the QC + LED package.
As for '14 "better range", see http://insideevs.com/2014-nissan-leaf-mostly-unchanged-as-range-technically-moves-up-to-84-miles/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://green.autoblog.com/2013/02/21/2013-nissan-leaf-revealed-gets-75-mile-range-actually-84-in-n/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Despite the '13+ supposedly having better range, in Tony's tests at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=11682" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=273048" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, he found it to be no really no better.
http://sfbayleafs.org/news/2013/01/2013-nissan-leaf-product-highlights/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; gives you an idea of the model grades as does http://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/presskits/us-2013-nissan-leaf-press-kit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, under Specs tab.
As for "didnt they fix the battery degrading problem with the 2014 model", nope, not as far as we know. What do you mean by that, in general? All batteries will degrade.
No, CHAdeMO DC fast charge (quick charge) port is not standard on the S trim.
Valdemar
Well-known member
Their markup is wrong then for private party prices, I suspect because there is low supply and owners are not in a rush to sell typically, which their pricing model fails to factor in.
cwerdna
Well-known member
Yep.Valdemar said:
I can't seem to find the SV vs. SL trim chart for the '11 but found the '12s at http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/channels/Leaf-Press-Kits/presskits/US-2012-nissan-leaf-press-kit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, under the Specs tab. It was basically the same as '11 except for what's mentioned at http://www.autoblog.com/2011/07/19/2012-nissan-leaf-higher-price-tag-standard-equipment/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
OP can compare '13 or '14 S (apples) vs. SL (oranges).
cwerdna
Well-known member
I've never heard this statement about KBB before. In the past, when I tried to sell my cars, usually, it seemed that Edmunds was too low and KBB was too high.evboy said:
There's still no battery cooling system on any Nissan Leaf.evboy said:
As for "faster than they thought" or whatever, those in Phoenix and other hot climates have and still suffer from much more rapid degradation than those in temperate climates.
There's been discussion of a "hot battery", see http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=320457#p320457" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; but as far as we know, it's not been deployed anywhere. They'd have announced it thru some means, if it had.
If you want to read/hear some of the gory details, watch the video at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=233418" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, see http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=9694" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13192" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
BTW, back to the S, since it has no navigation and no telematics (none of http://www.nissanusa.com/innovations/carwings.article.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; will work). I'm not saying Carwings is great, but it's just another example of S being stripped down. The center stack and the area around the shifter look cheaper on the S due to the use of matte plastic vs. the shiny plastics on the SV and SL.
I think you need to get your facts straight and compare apples to apples, or the 2nd item being close to the 1st. I'm not sure where you've heard all this misinformation from.
BTW, the '13+ SV and SL are considerably better than the '11 and '12 SV and SL via incremental improvements (e.g. 6 kW on-board charger, % SoC indicator, dedicated heater off button, OBC moved to the front, freeing up some trunk space, available Bose stereo and around view monitor, B mode, more efficient heat pump heater). But, Bose stereo, AVM, B mode, heat pump heater aren't available on the '13+ S trim.
http://sfbayleafs.org/commentary/2013/09/2013-vs-2011-nissan-leaf-whats-new-whats-gone-whats-changed/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; has some more info and compares an '11 SL to '13 SL.
I can't speak to the resale values other than my observation that it's pretty poor, but complicated by the $7500 Federal tax credit and $2500 (or $5K CVRP) early on.
You said "ship to vegas", is that where you are? Can you update your location info via User Control Panel (near top) > Profile (left side)? That way, we don't need to ask in future posts/threads or do sleuthing to deduce it.
If so, you're going to suffer pretty rapid battery degradation. Hope your driving needs are modest. Hopefully if you buy a used one, have it degrade enough to qualify for the 5 year/60K replacement... after that you're on your own unless you go with http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13331" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
From something you read, or something you imagined? I've not seen any information to that effect.evboy said:
Of course, liquid cooled batteries will not help 'dwell' temperatures in hot conditions. You will still only be able to 'cool' to the ambient conditions. That will still help once you are on the move and the battery warms up when delivering current, but simply dwelling the battery at Arizona temps will harm it.
Perhaps this logic caused Nissan to think that there wasn't really much they could do about it anyhow?
The only EV I am aware of that can actually send coolant to the batteries lower than ambient is MiEV, which can use air cooling from its AC system when rapid charging. (In theory, Renault ZE's could too, as they incorporate a Peltier cooler, but in practice I doubt they are powerful enough to cool batteries lower than ambient.)
Wennfred
Well-known member
evboy said:
For updated technology the 13's & 14's sure have lots of problems, not sure if it's due to the Tenn plant but the 2011 & 2012 built in Japan are rock solid.
The new leafs already has a recall on their passenger airbags, what next.
I wouldn't buy a Tenn built car period.
Wennfred
Well-known member
evboy said:
Those were the Phoenix Az & some parts of Texas leafs, due to the extreme heat there. While other parts of the nation like Kent Wash the 2011 or 12 with the 100k mile battery in Dec did very well.
cwerdna
Well-known member
The recall you mention doesn't even look like it has anything to do w/it being built in TN. It is fixed via a software update. Take a look at http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM452824/RCAK-14V138-8963.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM452755/RCDNN-14V138-1942P.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM452852/RCORRD-14V138-8833.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.Wennfred said:
As for '11 and '12 Leafs, some of them have had their diodes fail in their on-board chargers. Some have had their heaters fail. IIRC, some had their 12 volt batteries fail pretty early on. Sure, most seem rock solid, it seems but to characterize the '13's and '14s as "sure have lots of problems" seems unfair. The '13+ Leafs have a lot of nice incremental improvements, but you pretty much need an SV or SL to actually get all of them.
And, Nissan made trim level changes so that you didn't have to pay for an SL to get the CHAdeMO port. You can get it as an option on the S and SV. The 6 kw OBC is nice as is the % SoC indicator and B mode (not on S). The hybrid heater (not on S) heats up very fast. I'm enjoying the Bose stereo (even though I am NOT a fan of Bose), again on not on S. I love the Around View Monitor (n/a on S). The '11 Leafs didn't come w/heated seats nor heated steering wheel. The pre-'13 Leafs had HVAC quirks re: the heater, which is solved by a dedicated heater off button. The list goes on and on.
A used '11 or '12 will have less warranty remaining than a new Leaf.
redLEAF
Well-known member
evboy said:
Getting back to the first post though ... all these price reference services (KBB and Edmunds, TrueCar, etc.) get you close but no matter what, it's what you and the seller agree on otherwise you can speculate all you want until you find one for what you're willing to pay (if you can). I do appreciate the auction prices elsewhere here on the site as well because they are the bottom of what you might get worse case for a trade-in as that's what dealer's are buying these for their lots and things should go up (dealer markup) from there. I've actually have seen a few '11's that are WITHOUT the cold weather package out here in Chicagoland (car wasn't sold here without it for obvious reasons) so you can tell that it was bought via an auction or some other means out of state; these are 'cheap' from a dealer markup perspective ($16 or $17K) but most have degraded batteries as well so they probably got them 'cheap' --- these are being sold as-is by non-Nissan dealers; interesting what they may have bought them for, should have looked to see if they still have them but would never know what they sold them for ...
WetEV
Well-known member
donald said:
At least Tesla (several models) and Ford Focus Electric (FFE) have chilled liquid cooling. These are sold nationwide. There are probably some compliance cars sold only in CA as well. If I lived in a hot place like Vegas NV, I'd look carefully at the FFE.
edatoakrun
Well-known member
evboy said:
Those prices seem to be ~correct for clean LEAFs, with ~28k miles, clean carfax, and the DC port, as reported by completed sales reports from Ebay.
http://www.ebay.com/csc/Cars-Trucks-/6001/i.html?LH_Complete=1&Make=Nissan&_nkw=leaf&_cqr=true&_dcat=6001&_dmpt=US_Cars_Trucks&_gcs=13&_ipg=50&_momoc=1&_nkwusc=LEAQF&_pcats=6000&_rusck=1&_sofindtype=22&_sop=7&_rdc=3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It is very difficult, in my experience, to find the actual market price for any used car, at any given time, in any local market, until you actually buy or sell one.
cwerdna
Well-known member
Although not a pure BEV, the Volt has chilled liquid cooling. See http://gm-volt.com/2010/12/09/the-chevrolet-volt-coolingheating-systems-explained/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.donald said:
dgpcolorado
Well-known member
Tesla doesn't seem to talk much about how the cooling system is actually implemented in the Model S, but I presume that it is similar to their patent on the subject:donald said:
Electric vehicle thermal management system
The Features & Specs mentions that "Liquid-cooled, the battery maintains consistent temperatures to prevent cells from overheating."
Reports from owners suggest that the Model S cooling system uses standard liquid coolant to transfer the heat and that a heat pump is used for cooling the battery, cabin, and power train coolant loops. A resistance heater is used for additional heat when the heat pump doesn't suffice in cold weather.
[Since Tesla services all its cars there doesn't seem to be a service manual available, so far as I an tell.]
