Need help with EV presentation for HOA (homeowner's assoc)

Step 1 - I'm just looking to get a 120v outlet installed so I can trickle charge.
Step 2 - After dealing with those questions, see if they'll be willing to change to a 220v option + allow a charger to hang (outside).

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1317" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That thread raises a lot of great questions, but doesn't have a lot of answers.

I'm sure there are people on the board that have been through this before. Anyone have a presentation ready that address some of the common misconceptions/fear/FUD around EV's?

How did you address safety concerns from the HOA? Did you have to get extra insurance coverage?

How did you control access to the outlet/charger? Were you able to find units you could secure with a lock/key? I know I can get a locking outlet box for the L1 option, not sure there's a reasonably priced L2 option that has any sort of access control.

I'd like to have a way for them to see for themselves how much power is being used. Assuming my utility allows it, does anyone have a good meter that they can suggest?

What sort of payment option did you negotiate with your HOA? I was thinking of looking at the average # of miles I've driven in the last 10 years, calculating kwh/mi, and maybe paying that. That might allow me to get away from the meter too.

What other sorts of questions would you expect from a HOA?

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=8475" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; points to a meter that DaveinOlyWA used.

ITestStuff said:

What other sorts of questions would you expect from a HOA?

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I've been on two HOA's and for better or worse, here are some things you may encounter from the members:

1- How are costs handled (installation, energy use, repairs, replacements, etc.)?
2- Can the charging station make money to cover its own costs (permitting, licensing, HOA bylaws/covenants?)
3- Who gets to use it, and how is that controlled?
4- Any impact on traffic in the HOA area?
5- Is there a negative effect on real estate values due to the charging station or its use?
6- Is there a negative effect on a homeowners' "quiet enjoyment" of their home if near or adjoining the charging station?
7- What are the additional costs to maintain the site, approach, and egress from the charging station?
8- Does HOA approval for an issue like this require a full association debate and vote?
9- What are the HOA's legal liabilities, and risks?
10- Is HOA approval setting an unwanted precedent not in keeping with the homeowners' wishes?
11- What insurance is necessary or desirable for the HOA for operating a public charging station?
12- Will there be any increase in the costs of fire protection (e.g., new hydrants)?
13- WIll current police/sheriff patrols need to be altered?
14- How will additional debris and litter in the charging station area be eliminated?
15- Is a zoning variance necessary? More than one? With municipalities support that? Will homeowners?
16- What structure and landscaping is needed to make the charging station blend into the overall architectural concept of the neighborhood?

This gets you started. Good luck.

Great list!

I can handle these.

BlacklickBob said:

1- How are costs handled (installation, energy use, repairs, replacements, etc.)?
2- Can the charging station make money to cover its own costs (permitting, licensing, HOA bylaws/covenants?)
3- Who gets to use it, and how is that controlled?
4- Any impact on traffic in the HOA area?
5- Is there a negative effect on real estate values due to the charging station or its use?
8- Does HOA approval for an issue like this require a full association debate and vote?
12- Will there be any increase in the costs of fire protection (e.g., new hydrants)?
13- WIll current police/sheriff patrols need to be altered?
16- What structure and landscaping is needed to make the charging station blend into the overall architectural concept of the neighborhood?

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1-Homeowner pays all costs.
2-N/A
3-Assigned parking spots. If it's just an outlet, I plan to have a locked outlet box & the only key. If I'm able to install a charger, not sure how I'd secure it. Suggestions?
4-Since it's not public use, I think this is N/A
5-Seattle area is very eco-friendly. So I'd say if anything, it ENHANCES value.
8-We're not a very active HOA. No, it doesn't require full association support, just members of the HOA board. I don't know if it needs to be unanimous.
12-No
13-No
14-N/A
16-We don't really have a "concept", so I feel this one is N/A too.

Need help from MNL folks with these

BlacklickBob said:

6- Is there a negative effect on a homeowners' "quiet enjoyment" of their home if near or adjoining the charging station?
7- What are the additional costs to maintain the site, approach, and egress from the charging station?
9- What are the HOA's legal liabilities, and risks?
10- Is HOA approval setting an unwanted precedent not in keeping with the homeowners' wishes?
11- What insurance is necessary or desirable for the HOA for operating a public charging station?
15- Is a zoning variance necessary? More than one? With municipalities support that? Will homeowners?

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6-Depends on the EVSE, more research required. But nearest unit would be 20+ft away to outer wall, so the hum would have to be VERY loud.
7-If we're just making a hole in the side of the garage to put an outlet box, or maybe running conduit outside of it, I don't think there's really any additional maintenance costs.
9-Love to hear some specific concerns from people. Would these all be addressed with the insurance question in #11?
10-This wasn't something anyone thought of 10yrs ago. If a homeowner is willing to foot the costs, and it doesn't have a negative impact on other members of the community, I don't see the objection.
11-What type of insurance do others here have? Think I've seen people refer to $1m "umbrella" policies with their current home insurance companies
15-Will have to refer to local requirements. There may very well be technical reasons why this can't happen. My focus is on convincing the people involved to allow me to proceed, and then we'll move on to planning the installation (from a licensed electrician, who I would expect to be familiar with local requirements and qualified to provide this assessment).

ITestStuff said:

10-This wasn't something anyone thought of 10yrs ago. If a homeowner is willing to foot the costs, and it doesn't have a negative impact on other members of the community, I don't see the objection.

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Actually that may be your best argument of all. About 40 years ago it was common for communities (not sure that the term "HOA" was commonly used then) to ban the use of outside antennae on residences, including satellite dishes. Today most states have laws preventing such local codes and obviously today's technology has made those outdated.

I think you can make the same argument with any HOA that the EV requirement, while new, is not going to go away. It is in the HOA's interest to establish an policy for supporting EV charging that they find acceptable now and make that a precedent, rather than wait and have a government agency dictate what that policy should be.

In addition, such policies will very soon help enhance property values. As PHEVs and BEVs gain in popularity many of us will consider moving to ONLY those places that support EV charging easily.

I recently was looking at a new townhome development as a possible investment. They'd already installed 110V outlets in the detached garages and I suggested adding the capability for a 240 V circuit. It wouldn't even need to be live at first, but the idea is to get the cabling in place in the ground now before the parking lot paving was done. They immediately recognized that for a relatively low cost they would add a selling point for the townhomes and prevent expensive retrofits later.

By the way, regarding payment for electricity used the simplest method is the best one. Yes, it is possible to install a meter, read it monthly, and send you an invoice. It also is going to be a HUGE amount of paperwork for the HOA - not a selling point to getting this approved.

Instead, best is to have you sign up for a supplement to your HOA dues (monthly, quarterly, or annually depending on how it is set up) and make that a standard fee for any Homeowner who signs up for the EV service.

If the EVSE and/or outlet is to be used by one homeowner in a private location that's all you have to do. Figure out what typical monthly electric charges are, add about 15% for administration and overages, and make that the monthly fee. If this is going to be a standard HOA service then you'd probably have to pick a standard fee for all users. I can see wanting to meter your usage and pay for just what you used, but I'd suggest initially proposing a standard fee just to get approval because that sounds easy to do and simple. Later, after they are used to having an EV service you can ask to add a meter at your own cost.

If the EVSE and/or outlet is to be in a public location and potentially shared put lock(s) on it/them and issue keys to homeowners who sign up for the EV service.

I'd also say that homeowners are responsible for electrical installation costs and that once installed the new facility is the property of the HOA - however, the homeowner who paid for it would have rights to first use as long as he/she is a member of the HOA. If installing a fixed EVSE, not just a wall outlet, then the homeowner would retain ownership of the EVSE, however, the installation would have to be of a 240V outlet and the EVSE plugging into that, instead of direct wired. That way if the homeowner leaves and takes the EVSE the HOA is left with an outlet that is usable and code compliant, not a hole in the wall where a circuit ran.

cgaydos said:

I think you can make the same argument with any HOA that the EV requirement, while new, is not going to go away. It is in the HOA's interest to establish an policy for supporting EV charging that they find acceptable now and make that a precedent, rather than wait and have a government agency dictate what that policy should be.

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Initial contact with HOA is very pro-EV. They definitely see that this is the wave of the future. So there's not resistance on this aspect, just generic HOA concern (most of which they haven't detailed yet).

cgaydos said:

Instead, best is to have you sign up for a supplement to your HOA dues (monthly, quarterly, or annually depending on how it is set up) and make that a standard fee for any Homeowner who signs up for the EV service.

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Agree that monthly is painful. But if I push this as a "service", then I think there's a lot more planning involved. My desire is to keep it as simple as possible.

Figure out what typical monthly electric charges are, add about 15% for administration and overages, and make that the monthly fee.

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I was figuring that doing the math on my avg # of miles driven in the last 10 yrs would be good enough (since many of my miles will include charges elsewhere), but I definitely will pad the estimate a little.

If this is going to be a standard HOA service then you'd probably have to pick a standard fee for all users.

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Not possible, and not something I would encourage them to do. Instead, I'd discuss the way I came up with my estimate, though that won't translate well to others.

I can see wanting to meter your usage and pay for just what you used, but I'd suggest initially proposing a standard fee just to get approval because that sounds easy to do and simple. Later, after they are used to having an EV service you can ask to add a meter at your own cost.

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Why would I want to add the meter later, after we've already agreed on the fees? *I* don't want it (really), I just wanted to use it to verify for them the amount of power being consumed.

I'd also say that homeowners are responsible for electrical installation costs and that once installed the new facility is the property of the HOA - however, the homeowner who paid for it would have rights to first use as long as he/she is a member of the HOA.

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Interesting. Doesn't it complicate matters if the outlet is HOA property vs. my property? (Agree that it makes sense for them to have long-term ownership, but I do also see the benefit to me when selling my unit to say that this feature exists)

As for plugging in a 240v EVSE, it's my understanding that those are approved for indoor use only. This is outdoors.

HOAs make my head hurt.

ITestStuff said:

Step 1 - I'm just looking to get a 120v outlet installed so I can trickle charge.
Step 2 - After dealing with those questions, see if they'll be willing to change to a 220v option + allow a charger to hang (outside).

I'd like to have a way for them to see for themselves how much power is being used. Assuming my utility allows it, does anyone have a good meter that they can suggest?

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If it's outlet-based, checkout the "modlet" (from ThinkEco). There are provisions for data-logging, etc. (using a wireless network). PM me if you need a 220v version (I also have a MNL blog post on this).

Depends on your state..

Most States will not let a HOA regulate your need for Fuel, Heating, Electric etc.. So as long as you are installing an EVSE in your Garage or assigned Parking space.. And you are powering it with your Metered Power they cant really say much.. Also You can still get a Nice Rebate on the EVSE dock in most Locations.. And maybe you should consider pitching to the HOA to add a Bank of PV arrays to offset. That to would get them another nice Rebate from most States..

PV and your EVSE are your best Friends.. HOA .. Not so much .

Nubo said:

HOAs make my head hurt.

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+1

I find that they cause more pain in my posterior.

thew said:

Most States will not let a HOA regulate your need for Fuel, Heating, Electric etc.. So as long as you are installing an EVSE in your Garage or assigned Parking space.. And you are powering it with your Metered Power they cant really say much..

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Never worked with a HOA, eh?

Without their approval, I can't attach something to one of the buildings. I certainly can't cut a hole in a building to install an outlet, or tap into the electrical line outside. And this raises another point. Electrical service goes to the building, and it's routed internally there to all of the units. It's not possible to tap into "my" electric line and route it over to the garage. So it would be tapping into a community line, used for powering lights/garages. The power company may require that I have a second meter (though I'm hoping that doesn't count as an additional line of service). And I'm currently feeling VERY foolish that I didn't opt for the $10k upgrade to get a garage when I first bought the place! :evil: Then this wouldn't be an issue.

I also don't think this would be seen as a NEED, but rather a WANT. CA is the only state that I know of that currently has laws preventing HOA's from banning EVSE's. Are there others?

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I can't believe I'm the first person that's had to go through this. There's gotta be an early adopter here that's faced this sort of thing.

HOAs are a pain but I find them very difficult to avoid. Nearly every neighborhood less than 20 years old have them around here.

HOAs are there to prevent residents from doing things that significantly alters the appearance or livability of the neighborhood. Ambience must be maintained, yada yada.

My experience told me that I had to have my Halloween decorations down no later than Nov 3 (all this is true) Xmas lights/decor down by Jan 15th, up no earlier than Dec 1st (a lot of violators on this one) etc.

Now, I normally would say that an EVSE is so small and unnoticeable that it would be ok, but I have been admonished because of where I stored my trash can, not rolling up the garden hose neatly (true story!) and where I placed a fence (put it up about two feet farther in because the old fence had been hit by cars in the alley 3 times which was instrumental in it being replaced in the first place) when more than half the units did not have a fence at all.

so ya, HOAs are a pain.

ITestStuff said:

<Bumping thread>

I can't believe I'm the first person that's had to go through this. There's gotta be an early adopter here that's faced this sort of thing.

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Yes, we did but did not have trouble with board so I did not think it would help you much. But FWIW, here it is...165 unit, 4 story condo complex divided into 2 buildings. Underground parking with deeded to unit parking spaces. Some spaces out in the middle, some by a concrete wall. Two rooms in parking structure full of meters, one for each bldg. Meters are no where near condo units. Us: our parking by luck near concrete wall, 3 spaces from meter room. We proposed to board we would install separate meter in meter room just for evse. Meter would connect to "extra" available electricity coming into building before it was divided into meters so not tapping into common area electricity and not connected to our condo meter either. Sorry for non tech language. At one point, I had city power company officials, city building and safety officials, HOA president, and electrician in the meter room because I insisted that we have a group discussion to figure it out. The board was fine early on whole concept. Vote at their meeting took about 5 seconds. The issue was how to actually put it in and have it be connected to separate meter with separate billing. So.....
-was there room in the meter room for another meter? Yes
-could the electrician find the brand of meter setup that would connect to existing bank of meters in the meter room? Yes
-could the electrician determine looking at building plans that there was enough extra capacity coming in to building that there could be a separate meter (actually enough for about 9 other people to do what we were doing). Yes
-was the conduit run to our parking spaces reasonable expense wise? (we paid for all work) Yes
-was it OK with city people that we would put in a level 2 outlet only on the wall by our parking spaces and we would have a plug in evse (rather than hard wired one)? Yes (and board was fine with it)

And so it was done. City folks wanted shut off on wall and certain signage so we complied with this. We put outlet in a small locked box that will lock the plug in when in use.

So far, we are only ones in complex to have asked to do this. Board would be happy to approve more. We were first for our utility for all of LA city. Top brass came and took pictures. :mrgreen:

Found some helpful info from a public utility company.

SDG&E - http://www.sdge.com/electric-vehicles" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

While it helps, it again raises more questions than it answers

ITestStuff said:

Found some helpful info from a public utility company.

SDG&E - http://www.sdge.com/electric-vehicles" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

While it helps, it again raises more questions than it answers

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I was thinking the whole time that I was reading these posts that your local electric utility supplier can help you with your presentation. They're all about selling electricity and should help you find an acceptable solution.

kikbuti said:

I was thinking the whole time that I was reading these posts that your local electric utility supplier can help you with your presentation. They're all about selling electricity and should help you find an acceptable solution.

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I would've thought so too. But I haven't been able to find any useful info on my utility's site. This is what they have: http://pse.com/savingsandenergycenter/AlternativeFuelVehicles/Pages/Alternative-Fuel-Vehicles-for-Individuals.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ITestStuff said:

kikbuti said:

I was thinking the whole time that I was reading these posts that your local electric utility supplier can help you with your presentation. They're all about selling electricity and should help you find an acceptable solution.

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I would've thought so too. But I haven't been able to find any useful info on my utility's site. This is what they have: http://pse.com/savingsandenergycenter/AlternativeFuelVehicles/Pages/Alternative-Fuel-Vehicles-for-Individuals.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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PSE wont help you. they just redirect you back to the HOA. I had a HUGE advantage. I had a garage. I did not tell them anything but made sure what I did could be

1) out of sight (as long as garage door was closed

2) able to be restored to original condition when I left