Should I buy a used leaf?

Hi,

I am bracing for a long commute about 60 Miles per day (round trip) on I680 between San Jose and Pleasanton and I am wondering if I should buy used 2011 leaf so I can use the carpool lane. I680 has heavy traffic with over 40mins of stop and go traffic. How does a leaf perform in stop and go traffic in terms of power consumption?

Leases seem expensive at this point, but I can probably get a used 2011 leaf between 13K-15K. Do you think I should get it? How much battery capacity do these cars loose in 3 years? If I want to keep it for another 3 years would they hold enough charge to do a 60M trip?

If I do decide to go for a leaf, what kind of questions should I ask? How do I know a well kept car?

Thanks in advance.

MB

My unqualified answer would be no, don't do it. Battery degradation is almost certain to be an issue... I also believe that price is too high for a 2011... From a private party, assuming a battery in decent shape, I'd pay no more than 13K...

Nope don't do it, I got a used 2011 Leaf, my solid range is currently 60 Miles, I'm still within my 40 mile round trip work route so Im very happy with it. At 60 Miles you might have some hills which will eat up battery much quicker as well as the speed which you will be going, in Cali you know we are moving at around 70+ mph. With a new Leaf, new battery pack then yes. 2011 Leaf battery pack is pretty much degraded now. 13k - 15k is a good price, that's what they are going for now.

There is an App called Leaf spy pro for your android phone, you will need to buy a Bluetooth ODM-2 for the Diagnostic port or a cool device called LeafDD that gives you a readout of the condition of your battery. I use the LeafDD to watch the GIDs and I use those numbers to get around town.

So if I'm looking for a used or new leaf I would take my LeafDD to look at the Heath and stats of the battery.



Fred

I'd get a new one... much better deal for a fresh battery with the latest auto firmware. I can make it in my 2013 from Martinez which is at least another 20 miles from you. One way. I charge when I am in the south bay for the return. Usually have about 20 miles to spare. But I am a drive 55 to stay alive guy. Also saves battery. I would just about guarantee you could make it round trip to Pleasanton if you drive the frontage roads and Niles Canyon rather than Andrade Grade.

There are DC quick chargers in Pleasanton, Hayward, 2 at Ohlone college ( one at mission blvd & 680 and the other at their bayside area campus. Santa Clara public library has another... so you should be set for quick charge fallbacks.

Definitely don't buy used without quick charge in the SF Bay Area... really limiting.

Good luck.

mb79 said:

Hi,

I am bracing for a long commute about 60 Miles per day (round trip) on I680 between San Jose and Pleasanton and I am wondering if I should buy used 2011 leaf so I can use the carpool lane. I680 has heavy traffic with over 40mins of stop and go traffic. How does a leaf perform in stop and go traffic in terms of power consumption?

Leases seem expensive at this point, but I can probably get a used 2011 leaf between 13K-15K. Do you think I should get it? How much battery capacity do these cars loose in 3 years? If I want to keep it for another 3 years would they hold enough charge to do a 60M trip?

If I do decide to go for a leaf, what kind of questions should I ask? How do I know a well kept car?

Thanks in advance.

MB

Click to expand...

I know that route and don't envy you the commute. If you have level 2 charging available at your employer and at your residence then the LEAF will be fine. If not 60 miles is pushing it with a used LEAF - the summit will take some extra battery and during winter rainy days the extra resistance from the rain will also reduce mileage. But 30 miles one way with charging at each end - you'd be able to use the LEAF for years in that situation.

The LEAF *loves* stop-and-go. Those are conditions where it really saves energy over fossil fuel cars. One nice thing about the 2011's is that the A/C is very efficient - it won't drain too much electricity. The 2011 heater is a battery hog, but given your climate that won't be a big thing. One thing the 2011 didn't have that was added in 2012 (and in a few late-year 2011s) were heated seats, but many people retrofitted them with after-market heated seat packages.

The main issue with a used LEAF is the condition of the battery. At a gross level you can see if there is significant degradation by checking the capacity bars - these are the small white bars on the battery meter on the right. When new, the car has 12 bars. The first bar is lost after 15% degradation, then 6.25% for each bar after that. If buying used I'd want all 12 bars. Beyond that you can get more detail if you borrow a LEAFers aftermarket tool to get battery capacity - there are electronic-only versions and also a version that uses an Android app.

The biggest cause of battery degradation is high temps - the battery starts cooking when the temp of the battery hits mid-80s and the degradation gets exponentially worse after that. 2011 LEAFs in Phoenix are already having Nissan-paid battery replacements while those of us in the cooler parts of Colorado see relatively little battery wear. Ideally you'd get a used LEAF from some place like Seattle. Check the Car Fax - it will show you where the car was registered and maintained. Let's face it - in the summer Pleasanton and San Jose can bake as well so if I were getting a used bay area LEAF I'd prefer one that spent its time in SF or maybe Marin County - I'd avoid any that are from, say, the central valley.

The next two factors for battery wear are age and miles - so ideally you'd want a low mileage LEAF from someplace with a cool climate.

mb79 said:

... Leases seem expensive at this point, ...

Click to expand...

What makes you say that? The dealers are eager to sell the Leafs. Just get two dealers competing against each other, add a VPP discount and you'll be saving plenty of money on gas.
http://www.boardwalknissan.com/specials/new.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I get 90+ mile range on my 2013 year+ old leaf in similar conditions as your commute. I'm also in the bay area. You will have to drive carefully though. Drive less than 62 mph, and avoid using the brake. Instead use B mode.

What you want for that commute is either a Volt or a Prius PHEV (aka "PIP"). Personally, I'd go for the Prius and get 70+MPG on the commute, but if you want a lot of EV range get the Volt. Just keep in mind that when the Volt runs out of charge, the fuel economy is unimpressive. If you do go with the Leaf, *lease* one.

LeftieBiker said:

What you want for that commute is either a Volt or a Prius PHEV (aka "PIP"), ...

Click to expand...

Those cars won't get him into the carpool lane and thus won't get him quicker to work, like he wants.

DanCar said:

LeftieBiker said:

What you want for that commute is either a Volt or a Prius PHEV (aka "PIP"), ...

Click to expand...

Those cars won't get him into the carpool lane and thus won't get him quicker to work, like he wants.

Click to expand...

Well, OP would need to get a used one w/the green HOV stickers or hope the CA govt ups the limit so they can be issued for (new ones of) those vehicles again...

I didn't remember that they had stopped issuing them for those vehicles.

mb79 said:

Hi,

I am bracing for a long commute about 60 Miles per day (round trip) on I680 between San Jose and Pleasanton and I am wondering if I should buy used 2011 leaf so I can use the carpool lane. I680 has heavy traffic with over 40mins of stop and go traffic. How does a leaf perform in stop and go traffic in terms of power consumption?

Leases seem expensive at this point, but I can probably get a used 2011 leaf between 13K-15K. Do you think I should get it? How much battery capacity do these cars loose in 3 years? If I want to keep it for another 3 years would they hold enough charge to do a 60M trip?

If I do decide to go for a leaf, what kind of questions should I ask? How do I know a well kept car?

Thanks in advance.

MB

Click to expand...

I disagree with the other assessments here. If you have a reliable 120 volt outlet available to you at work I say go for it! Even in the situation where you need to leave early you should be able to do so within your first 2 - 3 hours at work and make it home with room to spare.

I have at 2012 and just went through the coldest winter ever seen in Washington DC area. I do a 52 mile commute, 26 mile each way. 10 miles of that is in the HOV lane at 70 - 75MPH. Even on the 15 degree days, going at speed and with the terribly inefficient heater on it was no problem with the work place L1 outlet available.

If you do not have an outlet at work, don't do it.

mb79 said:

Hi,

I am bracing for a long commute about 60 Miles per day (round trip) on I680 between San Jose and Pleasanton and I am wondering if I should buy used 2011 leaf so I can use the carpool lane. I680 has heavy traffic with over 40mins of stop and go traffic. How does a leaf perform in stop and go traffic in terms of power consumption?

Leases seem expensive at this point, but I can probably get a used 2011 leaf between 13K-15K. Do you think I should get it? How much battery capacity do these cars loose in 3 years? If I want to keep it for another 3 years would they hold enough charge to do a 60M trip?

If I do decide to go for a leaf, what kind of questions should I ask? How do I know a well kept car?

Thanks in advance.

MB

Click to expand...

Bad idea.
Same kind of question at least once or twice a week about buying used LEAFs.
See my input and that from others to similar question from early May.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=16641#p364941" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In general $13K to $15K used LEAFs are a bad idea for a lot of people. But paying that to start doing 60 mile round trips is a VERY bad idea.
With the capacity degradation after three years 60 miles is the top end of range under slow ideal no elevation change conditions.
VERY bad idea.

TimLee said:

... With the capacity degradation after three years 60 miles is the top end of range under slow ideal no elevation change conditions. ...

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Disagree. Expecting Nissan to announce the hot battery soon, I'll guess 7 weeks. Probably already shipping and will announce it once all of the old inventory has been sold.
Even without the hot battery you should be good if don't park the car in hot parking lot during the summer. I haven't noticed degradation in my 2013 leaf, here in the bay area peninsula and haven't heard it from co-workers either.

DanCar said:

TimLee said:

... With the capacity degradation after three years 60 miles is the top end of range under slow ideal no elevation change conditions. ...

Click to expand...

Disagree. Expecting Nissan to announce the hot battery soon, I'll guess 7 weeks. Probably already shipping and will announce it once all of the old inventory has been sold.
Even without the hot battery you should be good if don't park the car in hot parking lot during the summer. I haven't noticed degradation in my 2013 leaf, here in the bay area peninsula and haven't heard it from co-workers either.

Click to expand...

What does hot battery announcement have to do with buying used LEAF?
Your 2013 LEAF is still fairly new.
A lot of people in CA have lost capacity bars. A lot report they are down to around 60 mile range including an MNL moderator. One of the two members of the class action is from CA and has received a capacity warranty battery replacement.
But most in CA and TN won't qualify for the warranty.
So you think buying a used vehicle that will soon have range problems is a good idea when a replacement battery may cost $12,000 or a monthly $100 battery rental for the life of the vehicle that doesn't guarantee 60 mile range :?:

TimLee said:

What does hot battery announcement have to do with buying used LEAF?

Click to expand...

I was recommending a new leaf here in this thread:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=16869#p368387" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But yeah, my bad, I should have been more clear.

...A lot of people in CA have lost capacity bars. ...

Click to expand...

Yes from the warmer areas of CA. Fewer from the bay area. And still fewer for 2013 model year.

Thanks for all the responses. Overwhelming number of no votes! I do have level 2 chargers in office which I can use but there are only 4 ports and many many EVs! So availability will be a problem soon. And yes it does get quite hot in the parking lot in summers.

I have also been running some numbers in an excel file and it seems 3 year leaf lease approximately breaks even with buying a used one at 14K an selling it at 7K at the end of 3 years. Big question is can a leaf sell for 7K at the end of 3 years! I have my doubts. If the used leaf is kept longer, it gets cheaper to own.

mb79 said:

... I have also been running some numbers in an excel file ...

Click to expand...

Would be cool if you imported that excel file into google spreadsheet and published the link.
https://drive.google.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

30 miles each way should be no problem, IF you can charge up at both ends. To answer your question about slow driving: that is where a LEAF really shines. It uses almost no current when sitting in traffic; consumption increases with speed.

I'd recommend you run CARFAX on any used LEAF you are considering and favor those from cooler climates, like Pacific Northwest, SF Bay Area. Ideally, one with under 36K.

Even a really fuel-efficient car, like a Prius, would cost about around $100/mo for fuel for your commute. A 2011 LEAF is a really nice car, comfortable and well-equipped. Also very cheap to maintain, not to mention it doesn't burn gas. Go for it!

Wennfred said:

Nope don't do it, I got a used 2011 Leaf, my solid range is currently 60 Miles, I'm still within my 40 mile round trip work route so Im very happy with it. At 60 Miles you might have some hills which will eat up battery much quicker as well as the speed which you will be going, in Cali you know we are moving at around 70+ mph. With a new Leaf, new battery pack then yes. 2011 Leaf battery pack is pretty much degraded now. 13k - 15k is a good price, that's what they are going for now.

There is an App called Leaf spy pro for your android phone, you will need to buy a Bluetooth ODM-2 for the Diagnostic port or a cool device called LeafDD that gives you a readout of the condition of your battery. I use the LeafDD to watch the GIDs and I use those numbers to get around town.

So if I'm looking for a used or new leaf I would take my LeafDD to look at the Heath and stats of the battery.



Fred

Click to expand...

Hi Fred,

Looks like leafDD isnt available anymore. I can use leaf spy to get the data. Kind of dumb question here but what is GIDs? I cant find anything on forum that clearly explains that. and whats is the significance of SoC (state of charge I presume). Thanks

mb79 said:

Kind of dumb question here but what is GIDs? I cant find anything on forum that clearly explains that. and whats is the significance of SoC (state of charge I presume). Thanks

Click to expand...

Good question. Shortcut terminology that early people on MNL researching data available on the Canbus gave to a value that the LEAF has determined is the watt hours in the high voltage battery.
See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=16877&p=368616&hilit=gids#p368585" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
Would give you a Wiki reference with more info but it isn't working right now.
Status of charge is % of minimum and maximum voltage.
But LEAF does not let you get to 0 or 100 as it would permanently damage the battery.
"Full" voltage on a 2011 is around 91.7%.