Should I buy a used leaf?

[swmccarthy]

There are a lot of used off-lease 2012 Leaf SLs available from Carmax in my general area around Georgia for about $15k. Most are from the midwest or northeast, more than half have lost a bar, but a few show pictures with all twelve bars and about 20,000 - 25,000 miles. I assume most of those are close to losing a bar, but I may be lucky enough to find one that has been babied. (A guy can hope, right?)

My questions are:
1. What sort of battery health should I look for on these used leafs? If I hook up an ABD-II adapter and run Leaf Spy on it, is there hope that the Health will be over 90%.
2. If I have them charge the leaf fully while I'm there is it reasonable to hope it has 255 Gids?
3. Are there other metrics I should pay attention to? I assume the above metrics would include the Ah of the fully charged battery, so would be the same as the Gids % when divided by 66.2 Ah. Correct?

This is for Leafs that are 24-27 months old. Obviously I would like to have as good a battery as possible, with nearly 0 loss, but I want my expectations to be realistic.

Or should I forget all of that and look for the worst battery I can find and hope to get it under 70% in the next three years?

My commute is only 9 miles (18 round trip) I go an additional 10 miles one a week or so (run to the store on the way home or taking kids to sports after work) I can live with 50 miles of range, but want to get the most bang for my buck.

As a side note, neither the Carmax sales people, nor their buyers seem to know what a capacity bar is, so there seems to be no correlation between battery health and price of used Leafs at the Carmax stores. (Too bad they don't negotiate)

 

[mwalsh]

Or should I forget all of that and look for the worst battery I can find and hope to get it under 70% in the next three years?

If you go that route, don't forget to check the car doesn't have a B0133 notation against it!

 

[swmccarthy]

Thanks for the tip, I will definitely check that before buying.

 

[TimLee]

There are a lot of used off-lease 2012 Leaf SLs available from Carmax in my general area around Georgia for about $15k. Most are from the midwest or northeast, more than half have lost a bar, but a few show pictures with all twelve bars and about 20,000 - 25,000 miles. I assume most of those are close to losing a bar, but I may be lucky enough to find one that has been babied. (A guy can hope, right?)

My questions are:
1. What sort of battery health should I look for on these used leafs? If I hook up an ABD-II adapter and run Leaf Spy on it, is there hope that the Health will be over 90%.
2. If I have them charge the leaf fully while I'm there is it reasonable to hope it has 255 Gids?
3. Are there other metrics I should pay attention to? I assume the above metrics would include the Ah of the fully charged battery, so would be the same as the Gids % when divided by 66.2 Ah. Correct?

This is for Leafs that are 24-27 months old. Obviously I would like to have as good a battery as possible, with nearly 0 loss, but I want my expectations to be realistic.

Or should I forget all of that and look for the worst battery I can find and hope to get it under 70% in the next three years?

I think your expectations are unrealistic on a 2012
But you are looking for the right things.
As Mike says, be careful about B0133

 

[swmccarthy]

So what is a more realistic expectation? Should I just be happy with anything over 240 Gids and 85% SOH? I assume that any leaf with 12 bars should have that, right?

 

[Jedlacks]

I also have intentions of buying a used Leaf. No, I do not want to lease or buy it with a loan from a bank.

The issue that keeps coming up is the battery. On the low end I can get a 2011 Leaf SL locally for $12,000. If I take it straight to the dealer and arrange for a new battery to be installed I will see a saving of at least $20,000 at the end of the day when compared to a 2015 SL. The styling of the car is not changing so as long as the body looks good and the interior is not worn out...

 

[dgpcolorado]

So what is a more realistic expectation? Should I just be happy with anything over 240 Gids and 85% SOH? I assume that any leaf with 12 bars should have that, right?

Not quite. The capacity bar display has some built in hysteresis and has to be below 85% for some time before the bar finally drops — so that it doesn't switch on and off as the battery measurements fluctuate. This generally happens between 83% and 84% capacity (based on 100% being 66.25 Amp•hours) according to numerous reports here at MNL.

For example, I am at slightly more than 85% capacity, with 232 Gids on a full charge (on a good day). But my first capacity bar likely won't drop until next spring or early summer.

Overall, though, a 12 capacity bar car should have at least 83% of the battery capacity left. Whether that's enough depends on your needs.

 

[swmccarthy]

Interesting, DGP,

Ideally, I'd like to find the SL with the best battery among the 20 or so for sale nearby, but realistically, there is just too much work to find a way to test batteries that are a couple hundred miles away. In my mind, each percentage point is worth about $200, which means it's not really worth spending days checking things, and driving hundreds of miles to find the "perfect" car. I'll likely just pick the lowest mileage 12 bar car I can find, and be happy with my new toy. I'll go ahead and find out the SOH and Gids at full charge, but as long as my "Spidey senses" don't tingle, I'll just pull the trigger. Thanks for all the input everyone. Buying one of these requires a lot more research than your average car (especially when buying used)

Scott in Augusta

 

[TimLee]

I'll go ahead and find out the SOH and Gids at full charge, but as long as my "Spidey senses" don't tingle, I'll just pull the trigger. Thanks for all the input everyone. Buying one of these requires a lot more research than your average car (especially when buying used)

Scott in Augusta

Yes, more research is required.
Pay for the report that will tell you vehicle history, including accidents and insurance collision repairs.
Don't depend on "Spidey senses" :shock:

 

[swmccarthy]

All of the ones I'm looking for are at Carmax, and they all have Carfaxes. I'll also make sure I don't get one from too hot of a climate. (No Arizona cars for me.)

 

[swmccarthy]

Here's a pic of the dash of the car I found.

https://plus.google.com/104881014973535470109/posts/Xeh9p2BHydE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It has 12 bars, and under 17,000 miles. I know I shouldn't read too much into the GoM showing over 80 miles, but it gives me a little hope that the car could be closer to 90% SOH than 85%, and closer to 255 Gids fully charged than 230 Gids. I'm having it transported here and should be able to plug in an OBD2 and use LeafSpy to check it out in a couple days.

Of course, I think that the fact that the dealership is letting it sit while charged to 100% is bad, however, do you think that the GoM saying 81 miles at 100% is a positive sign, or is the GoM so unreliable that nothing it says is grounded in reality?

Scott

PS. I tried to post the picture, but had to put a link instead.

 

[mwalsh]

Of course, I think that the fact that the dealership is letting it sit while charged to 100% is bad

Dealer is also letting it sit on at least one (partially) deflated tire - I see a TPMS warning light in your picture.

 

[TimLee]

Just be careful that you don't get one that someone either fraudulently or through error reset the battery degradation history on :shock:
Have the dealer provide detailed information from the Nissan maintenance history system.
See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=18539#p400125" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
It is working out OK for the Seattle woman that bought one that was reset.
But that took a lot of diligent effort from people that have a lot of good connections with Nissan.
Be very careful

 

[Phatcat73]

Not sure why GA folks are looking at buying used. They're eligible for $12,500 ($7500 fed + $5000 state) credit. Combine that with 0% financing and $3500? dealer cash incentives and you have a new car for nearly a used price with significant improvements, including lizard battery, improved range and a fresh warranty. Plus the no charge to charge perk.

 

[swmccarthy]

I'm not a resident of Georgia, so don't get the $5,000. (My home state doesn't have income tax, so there is nothing for them to return to me.) My understanding is that the federal income tax credit will only return to you the residual tax burden you have after other credits are factored. It's not like the EIC that will return money to you that you didn't even pay. Because of my other deductions, my tax burden is barely 2% of my income, (which isn't huge) so, I would only get a small fraction of that $7,500.

As it works out, between the introduction of the S model, and the factors you mentioned (and gas at $2.50/gal), the value of used Leafs are artificially low. That allows me to get a car today for $15,000 that cost $37,000 twenty-five months ago. That is 59.5% off! And it still has a warranty, even three more years of battery capacity warranty (that I won't likely need if I find a "lightly used" Leaf still near 90% capacity after two years. Sign me up! I have to do a lot of homework to make sure I get a good car, but it's worth it to me.

If I could get a 2015 SL for $17,000, I certainly wouldn't consider buying one used.

 

[Jedlacks]

I was going to leave this thread alone, but what the heck, we are "friends".

My local dealer has an SL for $37,135. We pay 6% tax, and there is the $850 destination charge that totals $40,213.10. (I don't believe they tax the destination charge)

At the end of this year I will not have a tax burden of $7,500, so I will not see it. In fact, I'm not even sure if I will owe any taxes since I now collect a paycheck from an employer. The rule is that I can defer to later years, but I am not sure what the future will bring. I do my own taxes so my understanding of how the law applies might be wrong.

I can get a 2011 SL with 7,000 miles for $16,536 after taxes. (I could also get a 2013 SL for 17k plus tax). That gives me a difference of $23,677. Even if I wanted to drive the few miles to the dealer and ask them to put in a lizard battery on my dime I would still save $18,000. I have this money in my savings/checking so I am not going to finance it to give some bank my pound of flesh. I am looking to spend closer to 11K for '11, 12k for '12 etc and replace the battery if necessary.

All this could not mean "squat" if my wife does not sign off on it... sigh... :lol:

 

[billg]

At the end of this year I will not have a tax burden of $7,500, so I will not see it. In fact, I'm not even sure if I will owe any taxes since I now collect a paycheck from an employer. The rule is that I can defer to later years, but I am not sure what the future will bring. I do my own taxes so my understanding of how the law applies might be wrong.

Your statement above (my bolding) is not correct. You cannot carry forward any of the federal tax credit. If you can't use it the year you buy a new EV, you lose it. On the other hand, if you lease a new LEAF, Nissan passes the tax credit on to you as a price reduction.

 

[TimLee]

The decision to buy used LEAF looks better since Nissan decided to sell heat resistant replacement batteries last June.
But there is still risk.

IF Nissan Gen 2 has significantly increased range it is likely values of the earlier LEAF will drop further.
Auction prices are so low that Nissan is offering $5,000 off 2012 lease residual to get the lessors to buy them.
Several people have come to the conclusion that leasing a 2015 is the better choice.

recmob on Florida east coast with fairly long commute asked lots of questions in several threads and ultimately decided to lease a 2015 LEAF S with the likely plan to either buy at end of lease (hopefully with big reduction like Nissan is offering on 2012s) or move on to Gen 2 longer range LEAF at that point.
See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=18353#p396567" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for the last thread.

Those considering buying should at least consider that option too.

 

[mwalsh]

At the end of this year I will not have a tax burden of $7,500, so I will not see it. In fact, I'm not even sure if I will owe any taxes since I now collect a paycheck from an employer. The rule is that I can defer to later years, but I am not sure what the future will bring. I do my own taxes so my understanding of how the law applies might be wrong.

Your statement above (my bolding) is not correct. You cannot carry forward any of the federal tax credit. If you can't use it the year you buy a new EV, you lose it. On the other hand, if you lease a new LEAF, Nissan passes the tax credit on to you as a price reduction.

Oh, yeah. No way you can carry forward the tax credit.

If you want to carry forward a tax credit, get at PV system instead of an EV!

 

[swmccarthy]

I had Carmax ship a low mileage 12 bar 2012 Leaf SL from Atlanta, and here are the stats on it when fully charged:

16,738 miles
SOH 84%
Hx 70.71
AHr 55.73
Ah 49.85
Battery Temp 60 degrees
Gids 222
kWh 17.2
SOC is only showing 89.4%, even though I charged to 100%. Any ideas why?

Of course, I was hoping for an SOH near 90%, AHr near 60, and Gids near 250. Any thoughts on the battery health? It's a pretty little car. It seems like this is the worst a battery could be and still have 12 bars. I hope the dealer didn't kill it by leaving it at a high state of charge for a couple months.

Am I hoping for too much, or does this seem like pretty severe degradation for a two year old Leaf?

I guess it is about exactly what a 26 month old Leaf in Atlanta should have according to

http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Battery_Aging_Model" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;