Dealer charger wide open after hours, but kicked off lot

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mbender

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 21, 2013
Messages
824
Location
The Great California Delta, and environs
I stopped in my local dealer on the way home because I knew I was calling it close. I drove in the lot and right up to a wide open Level II charger attached to the building with its inviting green light on. Then, maybe about five minutes into charging, a rent-a-cop approaches me and says I have to leave.

I'm sorry, but I nearly lost it, because 1.) I was never told it was not available after the dealer closed; 2.) The lot was wide open, there were no signs, no cords and no obstacles (eg cars) blocking the path to or location of the charger; 3.) other dealers do offer Level II 24/7; 4.) I could have been granted a one-time exception, or at least the full thirty minutes he did promise, but he came back in five and unplugged and evicted me.

Of course, like certain war criminals, he said he was "just doing his job", which was predictable but still ticked me off. However, he's also not a Nissan employee and knows little-to-nothing about EVs, so my anger is/was probably misplaced. (Although, his refusal to give me his name does merit some wrath (imho)).

I'm curious to know what others think and if anyone has had a similar experience. It doesn't seem like Nissan is doing itself any favors "PR-wise" to have dealers enforce these kinds of absolutist rules. But quite likely Nissan has no say in which dealers do what, which is yet another strike against that antiquated model.

And even though it's still a bit raw (this just happened earlier tonight), all's well that ends well: I made it back probably just before earning my first Turtle. I got the Very Low Battery about 8 miles before limping home at about 25mph (in 50mph zones). Was anticipating having (and almost hoping) to call Nissan Roadside Assistance for a half-mile tow -- way out in exurbia.
 
mbender said:
I stopped in my local dealer on the way home because I knew I was calling it close. I drove in the lot and right up to a wide open Level II charger attached to the building with its inviting green light on. Then, maybe about five minutes into charging, a rent-a-cop approaches me and says I have to leave.

.... However, he's also not a Nissan employee and knows little-to-nothing about EVs, so my anger is/was probably misplaced. (Although, his refusal to give me his name does merit some wrath (imho)).
Click to expand...
FWIW, none of the dealer employees are Nissan employees either.

Do some Googling for Tesla franchise laws dealers to see why this is... Many people don't realize/don't know about these goofy laws.
 
Another reason why dealer lots are not the best place for charging stations...Much better in a business parking lot, such as a Walmart, Walgreens, Starbucks, etc...
 
Equating the security guard's job to those who commit atrocities is a bit much....

That said, many dealers are averse to having people on their lots after hours, even if they appear "wide-open." Too many schmucks who vandalize or even steal stuff off the cars.

The security guard, or his firm, has been contracted to provide security services for that dealership. Whether or not the Nissan name or logo is present anywhere on his uniform. If his instructions from dealership management are "NOBODY on the premises after operating hours, no exceptions" then he has to enforce that. Many if not most dealerships have recorded video surveillance as well, so if the security guard just lets people linger on the property and some damage or theft is later discovered, guess who gets to lose his job?
 
Randy said:
Another reason why dealer lots are not the best place for charging stations...Much better in a business parking lot, such as a Walmart, Walgreens, Starbucks, etc...
Click to expand...

The problem is some of them shut down the chargers after hours as well, or won't allow access to their lot.
 
RonDawg said:
Equating the security guard's job to those who commit atrocities is a bit much....

That said, many dealers are averse to having people on their lots after hours, even if they appear "wide-open." Too many schmucks who vandalize or even steal stuff off the cars.

The security guard, or his firm, has been contracted to provide security services for that dealership. Whether or not the Nissan name or logo is present anywhere on his uniform. If his instructions from dealership management are "NOBODY on the premises after operating hours, no exceptions" then he has to enforce that. Many if not most dealerships have recorded video surveillance as well, so if the security guard just lets people linger on the property and some damage or theft is later discovered, guess who gets to lose his job?
Click to expand...

I suggest calling the dealership during normal hours and reporting your experience. As you are in the SF Bay area, which may be the #1 LEAF market in the US, there is a good chance that the dealership will try to fix this.

Another idea is to call LEAF customer support (the number is available on the LEAF app). We need to keep reporting this issue to corporate Nissan because they do have to find some way to get their dealers to conform to policy on this. Although all dealers are independent there are legal methods for the auto manufacturer to gain compliance from all dealers for key policies - an example is the fact that every dealer has external EVSEs.
 
I wouldn't have left, based on his say-so. I would have made him call the cops. And then, if I'd gotten arrested for charging my Nissan vehicle at a Nissan dealership, with infrastructure installed as a customer convenience, then I would have gotten the local media involved. :D

Besides, if it was a quick charger, I would have probably been charged and gone before the cops showed up. Pretty well charged on L2 too, if this happened to be Detroit. ;)

Oh, and I see he forcibly unplugged you? All the L2s on Nissan lots have Yazaki J1772 nozzles. You can lock those to your vehicle with a small padlock, precluding ANYONE from unplugging you. Take an extra length of chain and another lock, and you can padlock yourself to the L2 Emily Pankhurst style! :D
 
Randy said:
Another reason why dealer lots are not the best place for charging stations...Much better in a business parking lot, such as a Walmart, Walgreens, Starbucks, etc...
Click to expand...
+1 on this.
 
Let's put our emotions aside for one minute and rather than apply what we think we should be able to do let's look at the facts. Dealerships are private property and should be treated with the same respect all other private property should, they are not public charge stations unless they are marked as such or advertised as such. No EV owner is entitled or should assume that they can charge someplace without permission or something stating that they are invited to do so. NIssan does not own dealerships and even if they do the purchase of the car does not come with a guaranteed charging contract.

Everyone should respect dealer property and all charge places for that matter because if they don't dealers and others will get tired of EV drivers with an attitude and start restricting stations more and more. If one is in a dire need of a charge and decides to to enter a dealer's private property to charge without some type of permission and they encounter anyone they should be extremely polite and agreeable, it is the dealer's property and they can say or do anything they like, it is not a charging park everyone entitled to use. If we respect this then in the future we will likely have more access and more stations from positive word of mouth not negative press.

Yesterday I charged on a QC at a dealer that went live just before I arrived. I was told it was not working even though it looked like it did, rather than argue the point I went to someone I knew and they said it was turned on an hour ago and they used their key fob and I was charging. One of the things we discussed was if they would charge, which they were not going to as long as it was not an issue. This dealer had asked another dealer how this was working for them so clearly they are deciding what to do based on the experience of others. If the public is not respectful of this generous and free service then I know the dealers will lock them down tightly. Besides, they spent upwards of $35K of their profits to install the QC, I think it's great they are not charging and allowing public access.

The day before this I did a QC at a "Stink" station and there were several people waiting behind me so I cut my charge short. While waiting I found out that one of these drivers never charged at home and was using the QC for all charging since it was installed. When I asked why I was told "because it was free", but now they may need to install a station since Stink is now charging. This is exactly the type of EV driver I would not want at my dealership. Since there are many reasons we all may NEED a charge at a dealership let's respect those that are providing this at their choice, at their expense, and on their place of business.

There is no excuse to think any dealer should give out free charging so let's praise and respect those that do. It does not matter if Nissan gives them a free charger and installs it for them, if you bought 500 cars there the week before, etc, etc. Even if a dealer is listed as a public charge location open 24 hours with free coffee and air fresheners it is still their place and we should all respect that. Dealers are not the issue drivers are.

There are many reasons a dealer may install charging stations and a QC and it may be a great benefit to them in many ways as a business but it is their business and their choice, not ours. Let's stop complaining about people that are providing a service and start praising them. I see plenty of EV prima donnas out there, we don't need to feed that mentality. We don't need a cloud of "smug" above us or we will need to rename the LEAF to LEAVE.

Now that I have repeated this point over and over I hope we don't mess up these valuable resources and EV entitlement does not spread too much:)
 
MBender - wow - war criminal! Really? When the gas station is closed and you're on empty, I shudder to think.

You might want to have a calm discussion with the GM of the dealership - most likely during business hours. Tell them how you will be SURE to buy your next car there and send all your friends when they are the beacon of EVSEs in the area.

I think the security guy could have given you his name, but is only obligated to do so if his employer requires it. He should have called the police immediately when you confronted him. Promising to let you stay 30 minutes was a mistake unless he has instructions to do so. He doesn't own the dealership - he doesn't set policy.

1/2 mile from my office there's a place with some Chargepoints. They charge 50c an hour, and there really aren't enough of them for all the folks w EVs and EREVs. Various folks have their opinions on the topic but here's mine: I need about an hour charge to make it home, and I may not be able to get it 100% of the time. That was my decision to bring a knife to a gun fight. The Volts and Teslas that fill up there may not need it more than I do, and they may be preventing me from conveniently charging, but they have just as much ~invitation~ to use those Chargepoints as I do. [No one has the right to charge there.] I also buy things from this establishment and tell them I appreciate their EVSEs and that's why I am dining here.

Whenever I encounter an EVSE at a business. I tell them how much I appreciate it, and how it swayed my decision to shop/eat/stay there.

Maybe all of this makes me a peace criminal.
 
EVDRIVER, I differ with you on only one point - it was part of the dealership's contract with Nissan in becoming a LEAF dealer that they MUST install these EVSEs and they MUST make them available to LEAF purchasers. So any dealer who signed this contract and is prohibiting a LEAF owner from charging (for ANY reason, so far as I can see) is in violation of that agreement.
 
mwalsh said:
EVDRIVER, I differ with you on only one point - it was part of the dealership's contract with Nissan in becoming a LEAF dealer that they MUST install these EVSEs and they MUST make them available to LEAF purchasers. So any dealer who signed this contract and is prohibiting a LEAF owner from charging (for ANY reason, so far as I can see) is in violation of that agreement.
Click to expand...

As I mentioned, if there was a contract... I would like to see what dealers actually signed that and what are the terms. Regardless, no one knows if that is actually in place and with which dealers and if it also allows charging after hours, etc, etc. It could get very costly as well charging at least 10 cars a day at commercial power rates.
 
Ok, ok, I went a bit overboard with the war-criminal analogy. I'm just tired of that excuse though, when simple acts of observation &or kindness would go a long way. (Without going into details, I am/was obviously no threat and I suspect this is why he initially granted me a half hour, only to renege 5 minutes later.) I was as angry at the reversal as anything else -- including myself for letting it get that close.

At the time I really thought he was making the difference between driving home or getting towed. If I were better equipped or prepared to deal with the media et al, I might have forced him to call the police (or 911, as he threatened!). I could also have put up a "stink" about his unplugging my car or not providing his name or showing identification, which I feel they should have to do. But at heart, I am non-confrontational -- one might even say I am a peace-criminal ;) -- and just wanted to get home, so I left.


Finally, it's hard to exaggerate just how "wide open" this charger (and the lot itself) is/was. It is attached to the building, without a vehicle within 50 feet, and I drove straight to it from the street, unimpeded by anything; its green light (or maybe two) was on. My point is that the dealer could take any number of simple steps to make it clear that it is not accessible: cordon off the lot or the area, add signage, turn off the power to the charger, etc. Any of these measures would preclude the kind of encounter that took place and just makes everyone look bad.
 
EVDRIVER said:
Let's put our emotions aside for one minute and rather than apply what we think we should be able to do let's look at the facts. Dealerships are private property and should be treated with the same respect all other private property should, they are not public charge stations unless they are marked as such or advertised as such. No EV owner is entitled or should assume that they can charge someplace without permission or something stating that they are invited to do so. NIssan does not own dealerships and even if they do the purchase of the car does not come with a guaranteed charging contract.

Everyone should respect dealer property and all charge places for that matter because if they don't dealers and others will get tired of EV drivers with an attitude and start restricting stations more and more. If one is in a dire need of a charge and decides to to enter a dealer's private property to charge without some type of permission and they encounter anyone they should be extremely polite and agreeable, it is the dealer's property and they can say or do anything they like, it is not a charging park everyone entitled to use. If we respect this then in the future we will likely have more access and more stations from positive word of mouth not negative press.

Yesterday I charged on a QC at a dealer that went live just before I arrived. I was told it was not working even though it looked like it did, rather than argue the point I went to someone I knew and they said it was turned on an hour ago and they used their key fob and I was charging. One of the things we discussed was if they would charge, which they were not going to as long as it was not an issue. This dealer had asked another dealer how this was working for them so clearly they are deciding what to do based on the experience of others. If the public is not respectful of this generous and free service then I know the dealers will lock them down tightly. Besides, they spent upwards of $35K of their profits to install the QC, I think it's great they are not charging and allowing public access.

The day before this I did a QC at a "Stink" station and there were several people waiting behind me so I cut my charge short. While waiting I found out that one of these drivers never charged at home and was using the QC for all charging since it was installed. When I asked why I was told "because it was free", but now they may need to install a station since Stink is now charging. This is exactly the type of EV driver I would not want at my dealership. Since there are many reasons we all may NEED a charge at a dealership let's respect those that are providing this at their choice, at their expense, and on their place of business.

There is no excuse to think any dealer should give out free charging so let's praise and respect those that do. It does not matter if Nissan gives them a free charger and installs it for them, if you bought 500 cars there the week before, etc, etc. Even if a dealer is listed as a public charge location open 24 hours with free coffee and air fresheners it is still their place and we should all respect that. Dealers are not the issue drivers are.

There are many reasons a dealer may install charging stations and a QC and it may be a great benefit to them in many ways as a business but it is their business and their choice, not ours. Let's stop complaining about people that are providing a service and start praising them. I see plenty of EV prima donnas out there, we don't need to feed that mentality. We don't need a cloud of "smug" above us or we will need to rename the LEAF to LEAVE.

Now that I have repeated this point over and over I hope we don't mess up these valuable resources and EV entitlement does not spread too much:)
Click to expand...
OUTSTANDING post, EVDRIVER. You have very effectively put the issue of public charging in perspective. I couldn't have said it better myself. :)
 
Most manufacturers attach all kinds of requirements to dealerships - and often new requirements are introduced. If you see a dealer move from a small 1970s-era dealership lot to a large 2010s-era lot it very likely is because the manufacturer required it. Manufacturers also hold the right to have direct contact with the dealership's customers and can severely penalize dealerships based on customer survey results.

However, there are some limits to a manufacturer's leverage - mostly in state law. You may remember that both GM and Chrysler took advantage of their bankruptcies to shutter a larger number of their less profitable dealerships - something that would have been very difficult to do for legal reasons in normal times.

Another limiting factor can be how in demand the manufacturer's cars are. A high demand, high profit manufacturer like Lexus can set very tight rules with dealerships because having a Lexus dealership is basically i right to print massive volumes of money. At the other extreme with a low-demand manufacturer it is usually the dealerships who hold the leverage cards - the manufacturer is extremely dependent on the dealerships for basic cash flow and the dealership owners probably are seeing little profit for that manufacturer so aren't willing to tolerate any extras.

On that last point, this may be the challenge Nissan faces. In theory Nissan could demand a certain charging station policy from all dealers and threaten to withhold the high demand, high profit models as a penalty. In practice, because of the low volume sales of the LEAF they probably feel they can't politically do this - there has to be a delicate balance just how many requirements Nissan puts on their dealers and this one is probably over the limit.

At least as a policy for-every-dealer. I would argue that for the smaller number of LEAF certified dealers Nissan could, and should, make these kind of charging station rules a requirement of LEAF certification. But even that may not be politically feasible - it may be that Nissan had to beg a lot of dealers to agree to LEAF certification, and if so adding extra requirements would not have worked.
 
I have to add this epilogue for the record even if no one reads it.

Today I visited the dealer for my 7K checkup and battery software update and did talk to the service manager about what happened. And wouldn't you know, the chargers and the lot are indeed open 24/7 (or at least intended and supposed to be). And the security guard was either uninformed or misinformed and had no right to unplug me, and the manager apologized for that and said he would be sure to correct the situation.

He was also surprised or embarrassed to hear that the security guard refused to give me his name. (Surely, they must be required to show some sort of ID, no? If not, what would prevent a more stubborn "trespasser" from challenging their authority or jurisdiction and refusing to leave?)

In any case, I feel less 'in the wrong' about my thinking and behavior and am glad my intuition was correct. Hopefully my experience and this resolution will prevent further misunderstandings and conflicts, at this and other dealers.
 
mbender said:
I have to add this epilogue for the record even if no one reads it.

Today I visited the dealer for my 7K checkup and battery software update and did talk to the service manager about what happened. And wouldn't you know, the chargers and the lot are indeed open 24/7 (or at least intended and supposed to be). And the security guard was either uninformed or misinformed and had no right to unplug me, and the manager apologized for that and said he would be sure to correct the situation.

He was also surprised or embarrassed to hear that the security guard refused to give me his name. (Surely, they must be required to show some sort of ID, no? If not, what would prevent a more stubborn "trespasser" from challenging their authority or jurisdiction and refusing to leave?)

In any case, I feel less 'in the wrong' about my thinking and behavior and am glad my intuition was correct. Hopefully my experience and this resolution will prevent further misunderstandings and conflicts, at this and other dealers.
Click to expand...


That is all irrelevant because you did not have that info before you went there and it still does not give anyone the right to be there when asked to leave. Private property is private property and all rules and respect apply, rational, logical or not. Until someone with authority tells you it is ok to do what you want there then you have no right to do so. What one assumes and "thinks" is ok is nothing more than entitlement in situations like this. People have the right to say "no" on their property for any reason and if they are in charge at that moment it is their choice. Many employees are misinformed but that does not change anything, take it up with management later. Private security owes you no ID or explanation, you are technically trespassing and they are not public servants and it is not a public park. Justification and rationalization does not change anything as much as we would like it to at times. ;)

This is a classic case that happens over and over with EV charging. The bottom line is to respect other's requests when charging even if you don't agree with them, it's not our property.
 
mbender said:
He was also surprised or embarrassed to hear that the security guard refused to give me his name. (Surely, they must be required to show some sort of ID, no? If not, what would prevent a more stubborn "trespasser" from challenging their authority or jurisdiction and refusing to leave?)
Click to expand...

It's called a real police officer, if one was called out there. If push came to shove, you could have been arrested for trespassing for not leaving when told to do so by someone given authority to watch over the property.

I'm glad you straightened this out with the dealer who will hopefully provide clearer instructions to their security staff, but I am not aware of any law that says a security guard has to identify themselves with their name. A police officer yes, but not a security guard.

BTW even if the person who told you to leave was not a security guard, the same would apply. The only thing that matters is if the person doing so is the owner, or someone given that authority by the owner (such as a security guard).
 
mbender said:
I have to add this epilogue for the record even if no one reads it.
Today I visited the dealer for my 7K checkup and battery software update and did talk to the service manager about what happened. And wouldn't you know, the chargers and the lot are indeed open 24/7
Click to expand...
I read it and thank you for the update.
None of the dealers around here are smart enough to have the charger stations available 24x7.
 

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