Dealer charger wide open after hours, but kicked off lot

[evsammi217]

I think you had a right to be there. It may be private property, but you bought a vehicle with the assumption you can use the level 2 charger 24/7. It was an invitation by the dealership, not sure if the actual dealership that you bought your car at.

You do not know if the security guy had the authority to unplug you, as this may have been a violation of the terms in which you agreed to the car. While it may be not in you contract, verbal agreements are enforcable, and certainly this rent-a-security guard does not the have the power to stop you from charging, let's say 30 minutes. You can could have stayed there, and called the cops and gotten your charge.

you have more a right to charge then the security guy to kick you out, because you are a paying customer to the dealership, and you were not acting out of the realm of expectations, as you are indeed a Leaf Owner. Maybe if you were in the Volt, that's different.

Either way, good thing you made it home, but the security guard needs to be reprimanded, and it sounds like the manager is on your side....

 

[RonDawg]

I think you had a right to be there. It may be private property, but you bought a vehicle with the assumption you can use the level 2 charger 24/7. It was an invitation by the dealership, not sure if the actual dealership that you bought your car at.

Do you have paperwork from Nissan, and/or something from the Nissan website, that says that a Nissan dealer MUST allow a Leafer to charge at their facility 24/7?

Otherwise, what you are saying is just an assumption, and you know how the saying goes when you assume something. And getting that assumption wrong is not a legal defense.

You do not know if the security guy had the authority to unplug you, as this may have been a violation of the terms in which you agreed to the car. While it may be not in you contract, verbal agreements are enforcable, and certainly this rent-a-security guard does not the have the power to stop you from charging, let's say 30 minutes. You can could have stayed there, and called the cops and gotten your charge.

Tesla allows owners of its cars 24/7 access to its SuperCharger stations, but the same is not true for Nissan, nor any other EV manufacturer that sells cars in the US. Tesla can do that because it buys the land (or at least rents it), and builds the stations and buys the power. Nissan does not do that; aside from the ones at Nissan Corporate in TN, at best they provide the equipment, but they don't pay for the power and they are all on land owned by the dealership and not owned or rented by Nissan USA.

The attorneys I have spoken with over the years have said that verbal agreements are NOT enforceable. Short of an audio or video recording, how can you prove someone made a promise? Especially when that someone is not the same person with whom you're having a disagreement? That's why they invented this thing called a written contract.

you have more a right to charge then the security guy to kick you out, because you are a paying customer to the dealership, and you were not acting out of the realm of expectations, as you are indeed a Leaf Owner. Maybe if you were in the Volt, that's different.

And where does this right come from? Again I can't find anything on the Nissan website, or my own paperwork, saying I am guaranteed 24/7 access to any charger at any Nissan dealer.

BTW, in tiny print at the bottom of my Nissan lease contract are the following words:

This Lease is the entire agreement and can only be changed by written agreement between the Lessee, Co-Lessee (if applicable), and Dealer, NILT, or any other assignee, if this Lease is assigned. There are no other written or verbal agreements.

Again, if it isn't specified on your purchase or lease contract, it wasn't promised.

 

[Berlino]

Do you have paperwork from Nissan, and/or something from the Nissan website, that says that a Nissan dealer MUST allow a Leafer to charge at their facility 24/7?

I wouldn't take 24/7 access for granted, for sure.

However, it would suck if my battery was running out and the LEAF's navigation system specifically directed me to charging station and then the dealer denied me charging privileges.

Many Nissan dealer charging stations don't show up on plugshare, but do show up on the LEAF's navigation system. I reckon Nissan has a lot of control over that content, so they likely expect dealers to share.

 

[RonDawg]

Many Nissan dealer charging stations don't show up on plugshare, but do show up on the LEAF's navigation system. I reckon Nissan has a lot of control over that content, so they likely expect dealers to share.

Guess what...the nav system directs you to a lot of public charging stations that are not open 24/7, and/or require you to pay to use the charger (or worse, only can be operated by members via a key fob), and/or require you to pay just to enter and exit the lot.

 

[ksnogas2112]

Side note, the only thing a security guard can do is assist with enforcement of laws and that is going to vary both by security licensing and local laws on a city by city basis. For example in KCMO, all security guards must be licensed by the city and attend regular training. The trespassing law (c.1996) requires public posting. So in this scenario if there is no sign prohibiting trespassing then make the guy call the cops. Doesn't mean he won't break the law himself in trying to do so. YMMV.

 

[RonDawg]

Side note, the only thing a security guard can do is assist with enforcement of laws and that is going to vary both by security licensing and local laws on a city by city basis. For example in KCMO, all security guards must be licensed by the city and attend regular training. The trespassing law (c.1996) requires public posting. So in this scenario if there is no sign prohibiting trespassing then make the guy call the cops. Doesn't mean he won't break the law himself in trying to do so. YMMV.

In California, where the OP is, signage is not always necessary for a trespassing charge to stick, depending on the circumstances. Prior notice of some sort, whether by signage or by other means, is really the issue.

When he was told to leave the first time, if he left immediately, and there were no signs or other indications (locked gates, etc.) to show that he was not welcome there, he would not have committed a crime. But if he continued to stay after the security guard (or someone with the authority) told him to leave, he can very much be subject to being arrested for trespassing, signs or no.

 

[walterbays]

However, it would suck if my battery was running out and the LEAF's navigation system specifically directed me to charging station and then the dealer denied me charging privileges.

I'm pleasantly surprised there hasn't yet been a news story about someone who was running out of charge, followed the navigation system to a dealer, was denied a charge, called Nissan towing, had a tow truck dispatched from the same Nissan dealer to tow the car to itself, where the dealer billed Nissan to charge the car.

 

[thankyouOB]

However, it would suck if my battery was running out and the LEAF's navigation system specifically directed me to charging station and then the dealer denied me charging privileges.

I'm pleasantly surprised there hasn't yet been a news story about someone who was running out of charge, followed the navigation system to a dealer, was denied a charge, called Nissan towing, had a tow truck dispatched from the same Nissan dealer to tow the car to itself, where the dealer billed Nissan to charge the car.

sir: i am going to stand by my car while i call for a tow.

funny. call nissan to be towed to the lot where you were just told to leave by security.
very funny.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I have to add this epilogue for the record even if no one reads it.

Today I visited the dealer for my 7K checkup and battery software update and did talk to the service manager about what happened. And wouldn't you know, the chargers and the lot are indeed open 24/7 (or at least intended and supposed to be). And the security guard was either uninformed or misinformed and had no right to unplug me, and the manager apologized for that and said he would be sure to correct the situation.

He was also surprised or embarrassed to hear that the security guard refused to give me his name. (Surely, they must be required to show some sort of ID, no? If not, what would prevent a more stubborn "trespasser" from challenging their authority or jurisdiction and refusing to leave?)

In any case, I feel less 'in the wrong' about my thinking and behavior and am glad my intuition was correct. Hopefully my experience and this resolution will prevent further misunderstandings and conflicts, at this and other dealers.

glad to hear it was resolved. having worked for a dealership, the security officer ruling is basically the same and I have been accosted by them twice (eventually they get to know the employees) because i had several deals run hours after the normal closing time.

they are paid next to minimum wage, are told NOTHING, have zero details about each dealership so blaming them is like blaming Nissan Customer Service for not properly advising you on locations of any new fast chargers.

they simply are not told that stuff, period.

In your situation, if i was really short on a charge with no close by options, I would have forced the police option. the fact that he unplugged you kinda makes that an uncomfortable confrontation. After all, there must be someone to press charges which would have left it up to the dealership and that is highly unlikely even in the absence of a 24/7 policy

FYI; my employer did not block off their dealership and also did not have a 24/7 policy but its only a Ford dealership and they flip the breaker on their charger (i checked it last month...)

 

[mbender]

Final words on this issue from me (the OP):

• This was the dealer where I bought (leased) the car.
• I believed (but wasn't 100% sure) that they had told me, at the time of signing, that the Level 2s on the lot would be available 24/7.
• The charger at the dealer shows on the map and there are no hour restrictions in the 'More Info' screen.
• When the security guard told me to leave, my first thought was "Oh no, they must have changed policies", but knew that wasn't the case after talking to the guy for a few seconds. I don't think he knew about LEAFs, let alone charging needs and the functioning and open chargers on the lot.
• So I agree that I was acting more out of expectations than entitlement.

Finally, note that I did leave, with relatively little fuss, essentially deferring to the guy in a uniform. Given what I have now been assured though, if it ever happens again I think I'd put up more resistance (in a civil manner... = civil resistance? ). I'd at least request that he call his boss, double-check with a contact at the dealer, or even force him to call the police. All while I waited, charging.

And as a last resort, having the car towed around the block and back to the lot would be very tempting given my sense of humor. I think Nissan or the dealer would gladly reimburse my cab fare home and back the next day (at the least) rather than risk the embarrassment of such an absurd story being picked up by the media.

 

[EVDRIVER]

As a dealer I would not want people on my lot after hours, the liability risks are very high having people potentially there hanging out late waiting for a charge. There are so many things that can go wrong when no one is there and even if the person charging gets robbed late at night the dealership they will likely get sued for not providing proper "something" to prevent it. Allowing people to charge during business hours is already going to be a pain for dealers and it's going to be abused in some locations, I have already seen it on day one at a location. People that own a LEAF should not look to dealers to charge and those that constantly need dealer charges did not think things through before their purchase. I don't look at dealers as a charge location any more than as a gas station if I were driving an ICE.

 

[RonDawg]

Given what I have now been assured though, if it ever happens again I think I'd put up more resistance (in a civil manner... = civil resistance? ). I'd at least request that he call his boss, double-check with a contact at the dealer, or even force him to call the police. All while I waited, charging.

And this is the "push comes to shove" part. If you challenge him and force him to call the cops because you otherwise wouldn't leave, once the cops show up there is a chance that security guard will place you under private persons arrest, AKA "citizens arrest", for trespassing. The cops aren't going to side with you either...as far as they are concerned, it's a trespassing issue. They couldn't care less if you need that boost to get home; as far as they are concerned that's your problem for choosing an EV over an ICEV or hybrid.

In the parts of SoCal where I tend to travel, the only dealer charging stations that appear to be accessible 24/7 are the ones at Downtown LA Motors. They configured the fencing so that you can access the charging stations without having access to other parts of the dealership. I have not personally tried to charge there at night myself though, so I don't know if their security squad is going to kick me out of there for charging. However, only the L2's are left on; the QC requires a key fob from the receptionist. Everybody else (Glendale, Universal City, Duarte, Wondries/Alhambra, West Covina) all block access to the property at night.

A couple of months back I stopped at a SoCalEdison location (not the Irwindale one, but one off the 60 Freeway) for a boost. The building was all dark and the lot empty except for my car. In the 2 hours I was there, one of their contract security guards drove past me. Although it was at night, he knew I was in the car as I had my iPad open in front of me, trying to pass the time, plus I was listening to the radio so the dash was lighted. He passed by twice and didn't even bother to stop to look at me, but if he did I would have left without making a scene.

 

[cossie1600]

You guys need to see some of the rent a cop security here in Nor Cal. I stayed at this apartment complex in a safe upscale neighborhood. The security went to one of the apartment with one of his hand in his holster, not sure if he has a gun or not.

The best one is the one at the local mall. The guy was dressed in full gear with multiple weapons (cuffs, gun, pepper spray) and a bulletproof vest. It was quite funny to see him jump out of his 4 cylinder Tacoma in that type of gear.

Sorry totally off topic, rent a cops are funny

 

[KillaWhat]

As a dealer I would not want people on my lot after hours, the liability risks are very high having people potentially there hanging out late waiting for a charge. There are so many things that can go wrong when no one is there and even if the person charging gets robbed late at night the dealership they will likely get sued for not providing proper "something" to prevent it. Allowing people to charge during business hours is already going to be a pain for dealers and it's going to be abused in some locations, I have already seen it on day one at a location. People that own a LEAF should not look to dealers to charge and those that constantly need dealer charges did not think things through before their purchase. I don't look at dealers as a charge location any more than as a gas station if I were driving an ICE.

This Is why "Nissan adding quick charging at 100 dealerships" is another ill conceived idea.
If you really care, put the DCQC systems in locations that will build the infrastructure.
AND dealers don't want them.

They will be a pain, the dealers are independent, and many of them will resent it. They already ice you out, because have you EVER seen a dealership that wished he had Fewer parking spaces?
God, I wonder who is steering this boat sometimes?

Put them in coffee places or something.
Put them behind a tree somewhere but not in a dealership where they will be unavailable at least 2/3 of the time!

Hell around here, the geniuses put L2's in gas stations instead of shopping malls?!
Who would spend 2 hours at a gas station?

When Ecotality/ EV project came to this area they asked me for recommend places to install public charging. I spent a week looking at locations, reading, using sat imagry, and came up with a list of 10 places that would have been perfect.

Right down to how to access the power that would be needed, justification for location, and which exact spaces should be used, with GPS coordinates.

I would have charged a client $10k for a survey like this, but I "was getting a chance to change this trend"

You know how many of these locations have any sort of charging?
Correct ! None! Nada! Nicht!

You would think, in the year since, at least one of them would have gotten charging in a random unrelated way, but nope.

Wasn't the EV project supposed to, was mandated to, put in a buttload of DCQC?

Someday, this will all be a memory.
There will be more electrics on the road then non.
But for now,, this is really frustrating.
It's also why I want the little DCQC project on here to succeed.
We are on out own, especially on the east coast.

"http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13522#p308661"

 

[TomT]

Both of the entrances to that charger area in the parking lot have chains available to block them off, and the sign in front of the L3 charger clearly says "...until 8pm." So, I have to assume it is not available after hours...

In the parts of SoCal where I tend to travel, the only dealer charging stations that appear to be accessible 24/7 are the ones at Downtown LA Motors. They configured the fencing so that you can access the charging stations without having access to other parts of the dealership.

 

[RonDawg]

Both of the entrances to that charger area in the parking lot have chains available to block them off, and the sign in front of the charger clearly says "...until 8pm." So, I have to assume it is not available after hours...

In the parts of SoCal where I tend to travel, the only dealer charging stations that appear to be accessible 24/7 are the ones at Downtown LA Motors. They configured the fencing so that you can access the charging stations without having access to other parts of the dealership.

A couple of nights within the past two months I had occasion to be driving through the area late at night (around midnight). There were no chains surrounding this lot (the customer parking lot) and the lights on the AeroVironment chargers were on. Again I haven't tried to use them, but at least on those occasions the chargers were accessible and usable.

I was there a month or so ago to have my car's software updated and I didn't recall seeing any "until 8 PM" signs on the L2 chargers. The QC is definitely not available after hours though, since it requires a key fob from an employee.

 

[BiosDude]

Slightly off topic, but still relevant. When I went and test drove my Leaf on Easter Sunday, the salesman had me pull into their sister dealership to show me how easy it was to plug-in and charge. I pulled up, shutdown, popped the port, plugged-in, and nothing happened. The EVSE was turned off inside. We went back to the Nissan dealership right next door to use the "maintenance" charger and one of the mechanics had their ICE blocking it. I've been back to my dealer a couple of times since then and there is always a new ICE parked in one of the charging spots while the other charging spot has one of the staffs personal Leaf's charging. My point is that I don't expect the dealership to have an EVSE available for me to use. Fortunately, in the Portland, OR area, there is a plethora of public EVSE for me to choose from.

 

[TomT]

It's a somewhat dicey area so I'm not sure I'd want to be hanging around that long late at night on a L2 anyway...

A couple of nights within the past two months I had occasion to be driving through the area late at night (around midnight). There were no chains surrounding this lot (the customer parking lot) and the lights on the AeroVironment chargers were on.

 

[smkettner]

I would be inclined to test the security one more time.
But instead of 911 tell the guard to call the general manager at home. :lol:

 

[kikbuti]

The security guard had no business unplugging your car, unless you gave him permission. If he becomes aware of a trespass or other situation that needs to be remedied, he should call the police. Security guards are not law enforcement. Besides, you don't know this guy from Adam. He could have been a burglar or carjacker.