Gen 1 GM Volt Plug-In Hybrid (2011-2015)

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evnow

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 22, 2010
Messages
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Location
Seattle, WA
Let us make an official Volt thread.

News from yesterday is that GM plans to make 10K Volts in 2011 and 30K in 2012. That compares to 50K worldwide figures Nissan had projected for Leaf. So, for 2011 & 2012, Leaf will probably outsell Volt in US.

This year is another matter. I think GM will probably deliver more cars than Nissan.

http://media.gm.com/content/media/us/en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... volt_recap

DiSalle confirmed plans to produce 10,000 Volts by the end of the 2011 calendar year, and an additional 30,000 Volts during the 2012 calendar year.
 
evnow said:
This year is another matter. I think GM will probably deliver more cars than Nissan.
How do you conclude that based on the limited info from the article ? (We are talking 2010 ... six months to go.)
 
LEAFer said:
evnow said:
This year is another matter. I think GM will probably deliver more cars than Nissan.
How do you conclude that based on the limited info from the article ? (We are talking 2010 ... six months to go.)
It's not only the information that is limited, but also the supply. Call me a pessimist, but I don't think there is a chance I can get either one of them this year. There are two arguments for what evnow suggested, though. (a) Unless I am mistaken, GM is saying they will start deliveries in November, while Nissan is saying December. (b) GM only has to ship from Detroit to .. er .. Detroit for one of their initial markets, while Nissan has to ship from Japan to California.
 
i dont see how GM could possibly out do Nissan this year or any other year for that matter. the Volt is obviously a backburner project until they can figure out something better. their lack of confidence in the product is alarming.

i like Nissan's "all in" approach. that tells me a lot about the quality and the long term development of the Leaf. they truly believe in their product and it shows

gm is acting way too hesitant for me to have any faith in the Volt
 
LEAFer said:
evnow said:
This year is another matter. I think GM will probably deliver more cars than Nissan.
How do you conclude that based on the limited info from the article ? (We are talking 2010 ... six months to go.)

Ofcourse, we can't be sure - thats the reason for my statement with "guess" and "probably" :)

As planet4ever also said, it all comes down to how much can be produced and delivered this year. We now have two separate sources that indicate very low # of delivered Leafs this year. The dealer I quoted and the electrician who did the assessment (he said something about delivery starting on Dec 22 !).

If Volt does deliver starting September - and since they sell only in US - there is a good chance they will sell more.
 
evnow said:
If Volt does deliver starting September - and since they sell only in US - there is a good chance they will sell more.
I hadn't heard September ... must be "selectively deaf" :lol: Is GM scared of Nissan ? Have they expedited/pulled-in the dates ?
 
evnow said:
LEAFer said:
evnow said:
This year is another matter. I think GM will probably deliver more cars than Nissan.
How do you conclude that based on the limited info from the article ? (We are talking 2010 ... six months to go.)

Ofcourse, we can't be sure - thats the reason for my statement with "guess" and "probably" :)

As planet4ever also said, it all comes down to how much can be produced and delivered this year. We now have two separate sources that indicate very low # of delivered Leafs this year. The dealer I quoted and the electrician who did the assessment (he said something about delivery starting on Dec 22 !).

If Volt does deliver starting September - and since they sell only in US - there is a good chance they will sell more.

sounds like there is no chance. 11,000 for 2011 and 30,000 in 2012?? Nissan will be selling that much every 2 months!
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
sounds like there is no chance. 11,000 for 2011 and 30,000 in 2012?? Nissan will be selling that much every 2 months!

Dave, I'm talking only about this year.
 
Chevrolet Volt Freedom Drive and GM IPO Update
http://gm-volt.com/2010/07/03/chevrolet-volt-freedom-drive-and-gm-ipo-update/

The Volt is travelling from Texas to New York City on a 1776 mile freedom drive eventually arriving in NYC on July 4th for the Macy’s fireworks celebration.

I don't get this. Why is this a "freedom drive" ? They are going to use only 200 miles of electric driving (nominal) and rest of 1700 miles of gas. That is just 12% "free" driving.

Initially after independence - even in 18th century - we had more than 12% of people eligible to vote. (from wiki : even though less than 1.3% of the population voted in the first presidential election: the 1790 Census would count a total population of 3.0 million with a free population of 2.4 million and 600,000 slaves in those states casting electoral votes in this election.)
 
Sigh. Marketing over substance. It's the same hubris that allows them to point with one hand to the EV1 and to a PHEV with the other to show how they're the 'leader' in EVs.

Roughly quoting the serpent that spat R2D2 back onto land: "Patooey!"
 
Well, since we have an official Volt thread.. I'll combine all of my thoughts on the Volt.

First of all, despite GM's overall attitude on the Volt, I believe the design team behind it is actually doing an excellent job and they are actually very passionate about the product. In many ways, this was also the case with the EV-1 from years ago. So, as a result, I believe the Volt will be a well-made, well-designed vehicle.

GM, on the other hand, has taken a luke-warm approach to this vehicle at best. They know it isn't and won't be profitable to them, especially in the short-term. From a financial prospective, they'd much rather be selling big trucks and SUVs because the profit margin on those is much better. For every Volt they sell to somebody, that is a potential loss of a sale of an Escalade or Tahoe or something. So that is the reason for the limited production. However, much of the profit issue is their own fault because they had to buy outsourced batteries which they are not getting nearly as good of a price as Nissan gets manufacturing their own batteries. Had GM kept up with its EV-1 program instead of burying it, they would be the leader right now and they would have a profitable electric car. I suspect this would be the case even if they were using the NiMh style batteries from the EV-1 (assuming they hadn't sold the patent to big-oil)

So, I believe the Volt will be a stop-gap for people who want an electric car but can't drive one due to the distance they drive, or for those who have range-anxiety about a pure electric. Even though I prefer (and have pre-ordered) a Leaf, I still think the Volt is an important part of the recipe for eventually breaking America's oil addiction. Unfortunately, at 30,000 per year, it won't be making much of an impact.

Another consideration GM has to make is the warranty. They aren't 100% sure how reliable this car will be, especially the batteries. What if they had a high failure rate under warranty, when these cars hit 1 year old? That would be a substantial loss on their part to replace them. So by limiting production that also limits their unknown liability.

However, you never know, GM may change their minds. If they are able to get the production costs down enough to make a profit, and the batteries seem to be holding up well, then they could always ramp up production.

They are also going to have to compete with Toyota soon. Since Toyota will be releasing a Plug-in version of the Prius. Although the Prius won't have nearly the same all-electric range (I'm hearing 12 to 14 miles EV range..) it will still be the same target market. Even 12 miles isn't that bad, though. Most people can make 12-miles to work, and if one could recharge at work then it would still be possible to stay gas-free most of the time. Just think if all cars in the USA could drive the first 12 miles on battery power alone. How much gas would we save as a country?
 
Excellently thought out, great analysis and well written ... right along my thinking as well. The Volt can fill a gap (not mine, I'd rather compromise just a little while going completely gas-free), but GM still does not completely "get it", like Carlos Ghosn does, for the long-term.
 
I look at Leaf & Volt as complementary. Ideally I'd like to have a BEV and a PHEV.

As I've written many times, 60 million American households have multiple cars. A very large % of them (abut 90%) don't drive more than 100 miles a day. For those commutes they will use BEV. For longer travel they will use a PHEV. Having BEVs and PHEVs in the household means all the drivers can travel gas free most of the days. But on longer trips they can use the PHEV with gas.

We won't need even PHEVs once the battery range increases (200 miles?) and we have fast charging infrastructure on highways. So, for the next 2 decades PHEVs fill a needed gap.

The problem with GM Volt is that it is intended to be a Halo car. By definition this is a car that is supposed to lift the image of the company and help sale of other cars. So, instead of looking at the larger picture, they are attacking Leaf and spreading FUD - in essence spending marketing dollars attacking electric cars.
 
After reading evnow's feedback ... just a quick clarification. When I said "GM still does not completely "get it", like Carlos Ghosn does" I didn't mean to say all cars have to be electric or cars have to be all-electric. I simply meant GM doesn't get it, in the sense that they need to look long-term to getting us off oil, and like evnow said, instead they are producing a Halo car while still wasting their own effort and $$ on bashing others' progress.
 
It is hard for me to get behind a big company that "blew off" its stockholders, and then "starts over" as if they are healthy, making lots of money, and "nothing happened".

If they can do it once ...
 
I've always been vary of people using patriotism to further personal (corporate ?) goals.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" - Samuel Johnson, 1775

http://www.samueljohnson.com/refuge.html

thumb_volt-freedom.jpg


ps : Anyway it looks like (atleast from gm-volt.com) Volt fans are mostly foriegn policy hawks who couldn't give a damn about environment. GM seems to be playing for that target demographic.
 
I agree with most of what adric22 said, but would question two of his points.

So, I believe the Volt will be a stop-gap for people who want an electric car but can't drive one due to the distance they drive, or for those who have range-anxiety about a pure electric.
If you mean "stop-gap" in the sense of a limited transition time, I think there will be a significant number of EVs with some sort of range extender as long as any of us are alive. I don't see universal battery swaps as becoming practical, and quick charges in the half megawatt range (which is what you need for a 5 minute charge to go 200 miles) are going to be far too expensive to have everywhere we have filling stations.

They aren't 100% sure how reliable this car will be, especially the batteries.
I believe the battery system is way over-engineered and I think GM knows it. They are only using half the capacity of the pack, and they have an expensive heating and cooling system just for the batteries. The batteries will be good for 20 years. How reliable the conditioning system will be is perhaps another question, but GM has been building auto air conditioning systems for a long time. Frankly, I have a lot more doubts about the reliability of the Leaf battery system than about the Volt battery system.

As for total vehicle reliability, though, the Volt is far more complex than the Leaf. It will require significantly more maintenance, and have many more possible points of failure.
 
garygid said:
It is hard for me to get behind a big company that "blew off" its stockholders, and then "starts over" as if they are healthy, making lots of money, and "nothing happened".

If they can do it once ...

This wasn't the first GM bailout.

Bankruptcy shouldn't be the main focus of any company, but it can and does happen. It would be nice to think that a company 'should' take care of their employees and shareholders but that's not required. Considering the entire 'system' or 'game' that pits labor against management, and suppliers against management, bankruptcy is one of the only ways I know to 'reset' the game and save a company from contracts that no longer work or to 'reset' expectations when markets change and the 'old' business model is obviously no longer working.

One of our problems as 'Joe Public' is that our education system does nothing to help us understand what a business or a stock or a bond REALLY is and how it works. Discomfort happens when our false expectations contrast with 'reality'.

http://blogs.hbr.org/martin/2010/03/why-ceos-dont-owe-shareholders.html
CEOs strive to increase shareholder value because they think it is the right thing to do (their moral obligation) and are reinforced in this belief by their boards that provide them incentives for doing just that. It isn't 'the right thing to do' and boards shouldn't encourage them to think it is. The fact is, despite their belief to the contrary, neither boards nor management actually owe public shareholders an attractive return on the market value of the stock they purchased.
 
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