Chevrolet Bolt & Bolt EUV

dgpcolorado said:

GRA said:

Yeah, considering how overpriced and lousy most in-car GPS navs are, how out of date the maps are and how infrequent the updates, why would anyone want to pay the ridiculous prices companies charge (at very high profit margins) for built-in nav, when you can use your phone? Given the choice between Google maps and the nav. in the LEAF, how many would choose the latter? ...

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I think the point is that a $37,495 car should have nav as standard equipment.

As to whether I'd rather use Google maps on a tiny phone screen or the LEAF nav, I'd rather have the latter: it worked fine in my experience. Not that I needed to use it much in a short range car that couldn't go anywhere that I wasn't already familiar with. I suppose the proposal is to link the phone to a car screen, but that seems a kludgy way to run a nav system; why not just do it right and include a decent nav system?

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I think that's the issue, almost no one includes a 'decent nav. system' in their cars, at least not one commensurate with the premium they charge for them. If people are already linking their phone to the infotainment system for music, doing so for nav. as well strikes me as a no-brainer. I remember one drive I took in a friend's BMW 650i, with iDrive. The map was pretty useless, as you simply couldn't choose an appropriate scale to show you what you needed. When my friend's wife got in the car, she just pulled out her smart phone and we used that for the rest of the trip. Even with the much smaller screen it was much more useful.

Of course, I'm not saying that every car's built-in nav. system is awful (although Tesla's SC routing feature seems to be just as bad now as it was when introduced), but they are included mainly as a high margin profit maker for the car manufacturer rather than an essential item that is maintained up-to-date. I figure that a BEV that lists at $37,495 is putting most of that in the battery, and I'd much rather see it go there and for various safety features than for a function I can easily provide for much less, and probably already have. If people want a factory installed unit they can still get one, but I don't think it needs to be standard, raising the price of the car for everyone. Personally, I still rely on paper maps - GPS is a nice addition, but I'm not the sort to turn my brain off and dumbly follow its directions.

They are not raising the price for having an internal NAV they are simply making more money by having you use your phone and pocketing the savings. If you don't have your phone or have an issue with it you are out of luck. I would also prefer to have the accuracy of the GPS antennae on the car not in the phone. I would never use the LEAF system as a comparison to any NAV, it is pure crap and cobbled together last minute because they needed a quick EV solution and did not leverage other systems they have. Regardless this EV has bigger issues than a detached GPS. Nissan and GM can price compete on this segment and Tesla can demolish them both combined in sales, unless they completely mess up and make cars that burn up on start or are two years late. Even at $10K more.

I almost never use the internal Nav in my Volt, preferring to use Android Auto instead. Likewise, I use Pandora on the phone and AA instead of XM... BTW, when using AA, it uses the GPS information from the car, not the phone... All Gen 2 Volts have GPS whether or not they have the Nav system because it is necessary for Onstar...

EVDRIVER said:

They are not raising the price for having an internal NAV they are simply making more money by having you use your phone and pocketing the savings.

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TomT said:

I almost never use the internal Nav in my Volt, preferring to use Android Auto instead. Likewise, I use Pandora on the phone and AA instead of XM... BTW, when using AA, it uses the GPS information from the car, not the phone... All Gen 2 Volts have GPS whether or not they have the Nav system because it is necessary for Onstar...

EVDRIVER said:

They are not raising the price for having an internal NAV they are simply making more money by having you use your phone and pocketing the savings.

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The RAV EV works similarly but you can use NAV with no phone but some features need the phone outside of audio.

One downside of using a phone app for nav is data usage, unless it works offline.

2 Bolts checked in on PlugShare this week in Manchester, VT




Also, this one in Maryland: https://www.facebook.com/plugshare/posts/1243935568989791:0

That confirms what I had concluded from looking at pictures on websites. The black paint is lousy on the Bolt, and the red is great. The blue should also be ok, if my judgement is correct.

DNAinaGoodWay said:

One downside of using a phone app for nav is data usage, unless it works offline....

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Yes, google maps has an offline mode. A tablet with only wifi works well. I've tried it.

EVDRIVER said:

They are not raising the price for having an internal NAV they are simply making more money by having you use your phone and pocketing the savings.

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If lots of people feel that way they won't buy, and GM will have to drop the price to lure them back.

EVDRIVER said:

If you don't have your phone or have an issue with it you are out of luck. I would also prefer to have the accuracy of the GPS antennae on the car not in the phone.

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Or, you could just buy an aftermarket GPS for $130-$330 list (considerably less on sale): https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/cOnTheRoad-cAutomotive-p1.html

GRA said:

EVDRIVER said:

They are not raising the price for having an internal NAV they are simply making more money by having you use your phone and pocketing the savings.

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If lots of people feel that way they won't buy, and GM will have to drop the price to lure them back.

EVDRIVER said:

If you don't have your phone or have an issue with it you are out of luck. I would also prefer to have the accuracy of the GPS antennae on the car not in the phone.

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Or, you could just buy an aftermarket GPS for $130-$330 list (considerably less on sale): https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/cOnTheRoad-cAutomotive-p1.html

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1) Few know this as they look at the bottom line price. Most buyers are ignorant and care less about these details they want it to work and meet their needs with minimal hassle.

2) That's just what everyone wants, another non-integrated device and crap on the dash My very old Acura TL had a good NAV, I could even speak "find nearest XXX restaurant" and it would. This is how they all should work. In fact you should be able to have these commands for charge stations etc.

The LEAF set a new bar on how far backward you can go on a car infotainment system. The fact it was in an EV was even more insane. Map updates should also be supplied via a download to a USB for free or a small fee by auto makers. EVs should have leading technology in telematics not a Clarion double DIN radio slapped with some cobbled software because they did not take the time to make a proper system. Anyone that has spoken to the Nissan product dev people from Japan knows how they were of touch and likely still are to some degree. But that horse has been turned to dog food. This is not complicated stuff to do today particularly with the operating systems now available. Seems auto makers get ideas of what to do from vendors or things they think they need and mess up their systems. The logic is sometimes well intended but misguided. These issues are not going to impact sales the other big aspects of the Bolt will and once consumers truly lean about the comparisons of meaningful things like DC charging, etc then the perception gap will widen. GM's early reveal of the Bolt may end up as a possible Nissan advantage.

GRA said:

...Of course, I'm not saying that every car's built-in nav. system is awful (although Tesla's SC routing feature seems to be just as bad now as it was when introduced)...

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This isn't true. Tesla's nav system works quite well to get to, calculate energy needed, and find Supercharger Stations (it knows where they all are). I've used it for that purpose dozens and dozens of times. The big screen also really helps to zoom in on the satellite image to see exactly where one is going. It has a few glitches and sometimes picks odd routes in the mountains but is excellent in instantly redirecting when you pick a different route (complete with a new energy calculation) or miss a turn.

Tesla owners would like it to allow waypoints, rather than just route through Supercharger Stations, and the ability to allow for dragging to change a route, as is done with Google maps, but those are just quibbles and otherwise it really works well. I've been very pleased with Tessie the nav system and especially appreciate the lane guidance for freeway routes in unfamiliar locations (which is pretty much every freeway for me since I don't drive multi-lane roads at home).

dgpcolorado said:

GRA said:

...Of course, I'm not saying that every car's built-in nav. system is awful (although Tesla's SC routing feature seems to be just as bad now as it was when introduced)...

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This isn't true. Tesla's nav system works quite well to get to, calculate energy needed, and find Supercharger Stations (it knows where they all are). I've used it for that purpose dozens and dozens of times. The big screen also really helps to zoom in on the satellite image to see exactly where one is going. It has a few glitches and sometimes picks odd routes in the mountains but is excellent in instantly redirecting when you pick a different route (complete with a new energy calculation) or miss a turn.

Tesla owners would like it to allow waypoints, rather than just route through Supercharger Stations, and the ability to allow for dragging to change a route, as is done with Google maps, but those are just quibbles and otherwise it really works well. I've been very pleased with Tessie the nav system and especially appreciate the lane guidance for freeway routes in unfamiliar locations (which is pretty much every freeway for me since I don't drive multi-lane roads at home).

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See the account of its behavior during Edmunds' recent Santa Monica to South Lake Tahoe and return comparison drive with the Mirai. These are exactly the same problems that were present when it was introduced back in March 2015: http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-x/2016/long-term-road-test/2016-tesla-model-x-math-befuddled-software-and-chasing-a-mirai-to-lake-tahoe.html

and

http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-x/2016/long-term-road-test/2016-tesla-model-x-supercharger-shortcut-on-the-return-leg-from-lake-tahoe.html

The fact that they haven't bothered/been able to fix what should be a fairly routine piece of software in all this time doesn't reflect well on them.

Opel Ampera-E (Bolt) will fit right in with the size of cars in other countries.

http://insideevs.com/opel-ampera-e-debut-video-paris/

GRA said:

See the account of its behavior during Edmunds' recent Santa Monica to South Lake Tahoe and return comparison drive with the Mirai. These are exactly the same problems that were present when it was introduced back in March 2015: http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-x/2016/long-term-road-test/2016-tesla-model-x-math-befuddled-software-and-chasing-a-mirai-to-lake-tahoe.html

and

http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-x/2016/long-term-road-test/2016-tesla-model-x-supercharger-shortcut-on-the-return-leg-from-lake-tahoe.html

The fact that they haven't bothered/been able to fix what should be a fairly routine piece of software in all this time doesn't reflect well on them.

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Look, I've used Tesla nav a whole lot more than Edmunds and I think I have a much better idea of how it functions than they do. And, no, it hasn't ever told me to turn around and return to a station when I can make the next one; not once! It has tried to route me through Grand Junction from Moab rather than take a direct line home, because the trip is a bit difficult, with huge altitude gain, but that is easily remedied by selecting the skip Supercharger Station option (wow, what a concept!). I have no patience for reporters, even Edmunds car guys, who can't be bothered to do their homework. Screw that.

You can take a few quirks, especially those reported by reporters who don't know what they are doing, and extrapolate them into some big nav system fail. I don't buy it. Tessie the nav system works quite well and I am pleased with it. Could it be improved? Sure, that's probably true of any software system and I mentioned a couple of the things I'd like to see above.

You are looking for reasons to say that EVs aren't ready for prime time because they don't fit your specific, and very unusual, use conditions. I think they work well for many. I get along fine with my Model S as my only car and it is way more fun to drive than my ICE cars in the past. 14,000+ miles in seven months, including several multi-thousand mile road trips, suggests that it works quite well for me. And it carries my bicycle and camping gear just fine. And my use conditions are far more challenging than the vast majority of people, as you well know.

I expect that the Bolt will also be fun to drive and work for many, although it isn't suitable as an only car because it can't do long road trips. But for local/regional driving it should do well.

dgpcolorado said:

GRA said:

See the account of its behavior during Edmunds' recent Santa Monica to South Lake Tahoe and return comparison drive with the Mirai. These are exactly the same problems that were present when it was introduced back in March 2015: http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-x/2016/long-term-road-test/2016-tesla-model-x-math-befuddled-software-and-chasing-a-mirai-to-lake-tahoe.html

and

http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-x/2016/long-term-road-test/2016-tesla-model-x-supercharger-shortcut-on-the-return-leg-from-lake-tahoe.html

The fact that they haven't bothered/been able to fix what should be a fairly routine piece of software in all this time doesn't reflect well on them.

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Look, I've used Tesla nav a whole lot more than Edmunds and I think I have a much better idea of how it functions than they do. And, no, it hasn't ever told me to turn around and return to a station when I can make the next one; not once! It has tried to route me through Grand Junction from Moab rather than take a direct line home, because the trip is a bit difficult, with huge altitude gain, but that is easily remedied by selecting the skip Supercharger Station option (wow, what a concept!). I have no patience for reporters, even Edmunds car guys, who can't be bothered to do their homework. Screw that.

You can take a few quirks, especially those reported by reporters who don't know what they are doing, and extrapolate them into some big nav system fail. I don't buy it. Tessie the nav system works quite well and I am pleased with it. Could it be improved? Sure, that's probably true of any software system and I mentioned a couple of the things I'd like to see above.

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DGP, those exact same quirks were widely reported by Tesla owners on TMC as soon as the trip planner routing function was introduced. I don't remember for sure, but ISTR that Tony Williams also had it try to route him back to the station he'd just left; hopefully he can confirm or deny, because my memory's hazy on that. Now, maybe most Tesla owners don't "do their homework," but in general they're a pretty tech savvy bunch, especially the ones who post on TMC. Here's an example from today, of an owner who's clearly aware of the issue (see Post #72): https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/supercharger-bakersfield-live-on-09-29-2016.75485/page-4#post-1760728

The question is why on earth does the software do this, and why hasn't Tesla done something to correct it, which should be a fairly easy fix? After all, it would probably take just one or two lines of code to say "if you've just charged at station X, then don't route people back to it while they're enroute to station Y. Easy-peasy, and yet it still has this bug after all this time.

dgpcolorado said:

You are looking for reasons to say that EVs aren't ready for prime time because they don't fit your specific, and very unusual, use conditions. I think they work well for many. I get along fine with my Model S as my only car and it is way more fun to drive than my ICE cars in the past. 14,000+ miles in seven months, including several multi-thousand mile road trips, suggests that it works quite well for me. And it carries my bicycle and camping gear just fine. And my use conditions are far more challenging than the vast majority of people, as you well know.

I expect that the Bolt will also be fun to drive and work for many, although it isn't suitable as an only car because it can't do long road trips. But for local/regional driving it should do well.

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Where have you ever gotten the idea that I'm 'looking for' reasons to say that EVs aren't ready for prime time? I think they are definitely approaching that now, but neither of us will be the ultimate judge of that - mainstream consumers wil be. As I said upthread, I believe that a car with the Bolt's characteristics has finally achieved what the Gen 1 affordable BEVs should have done but couldn't - provide year-round, no worries commuting and local errand running for at least ten years and maybe 15-20, depending on climate, at a semi-reasonable price for a primary car, and also serve for regional travel and shorter road trips for 5-10 years. That they don't meet my needs yet is neither here nor there - I know I'm an outlier.

GRA said:

The question is why on earth does the software do this, and why hasn't Tesla done something to correct it, which should be a fairly easy fix? After all, it would probably take just one or two lines of code to say "if you've just charged at station X, then don't route people back to it while they're enroute to station Y. Easy-peasy, and yet it still has this bug after all this time.

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V7.1 trip planner improvements (approx Jan'16)
* Avoid stops that are less than 5 minutes
* Avoid stops that deviate from the most direct route

Image: i.imgur.com/z19gV1l.jpg

Yes, the Tesla trip planner roitinely sends me back to the departure Supercharger if the estimation of remaining energy at scheduled destination falls to some single digit percentage.

I'm anxious to try v8.0 on a trip soon.

scottf200 said:

GRA said:

The question is why on earth does the software do this, and why hasn't Tesla done something to correct it, which should be a fairly easy fix? After all, it would probably take just one or two lines of code to say "if you've just charged at station X, then don't route people back to it while they're enroute to station Y. Easy-peasy, and yet it still has this bug after all this time.

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V7.1 trip planner improvements (approx Jan'16)
* Avoid stops that are less than 5 minutes
* Avoid stops that deviate from the most direct route

Image: i.imgur.com/z19gV1l.jpg

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Obviously they've still got some work to do on that second point, as there's no way that detouring off I-5 to Gilroy and San Jose, and possibly/likely Fremont, Dublin, and Vacaville after that, instead of going direct from Harris Ranch to Manteca and then on to Folsom as described by Dan Edmunds on his trip, is "Avoid(ing) stops that deviate from the most direct route". They got the Model X P90D back in April so it certainly should have all the latest updates, yet over 5.5 months later (and 8-9 months after the update was introduced) it's still doing this.

My programming experience pretty much starts and ends with teaching myself Microsoft Basic back in the late '70s, but even I could fix this problem, which is orders of magnitude less difficult than writing software that will allow the AEB system to recognize a road sign as no threat, but the broadside of a truck as one. If a 15 year-old kid can write a free public domain program that doesn't suffer from these problems (and allows waypoints), you're telling me the experienced programmers that Tesla employs are unable to provide the same capability? After Tesla's trip planner was introduced, a lot of owners, after trying it and experiencing its bugs, went right back to using EV Trip Planner. As I said a few posts back, this doesn't reflect well on Tesla. If they want to try for moonshots, fine, but how about they also take care of taking out the garbage and replacing burned out light bulbs?

GRA said:

scottf200 said:

GRA said:

The question is why on earth does the software do this, and why hasn't Tesla done something to correct it, which should be a fairly easy fix? After all, it would probably take just one or two lines of code to say "if you've just charged at station X, then don't route people back to it while they're enroute to station Y. Easy-peasy, and yet it still has this bug after all this time.

Click to expand...

V7.1 trip planner improvements (approx Jan'16)
* Avoid stops that are less than 5 minutes
* Avoid stops that deviate from the most direct route
Image: i.imgur.com/z19gV1l.jpg

Click to expand...

Obviously they've still got some work to do on that second point, as there's no way that detouring off I-5 to Gilroy and San Jose, and possibly/likely Fremont, Dublin, and Vacaville after that, instead of going direct from Harris Ranch to Manteca and then on to Folsom as described by Dan Edmunds on his trip, is "Avoid(ing) stops that deviate from the most direct route". They got the Model X P90D back in April so it certainly should have all the latest updates, yet over 5.5 months later (and 8-9 months after the update was introduced) it's still doing this.

My programming experience pretty much starts and ends with teaching myself Microsoft Basic back in the late '70s, but even I could fix this problem, which is orders of magnitude less difficult than writing software that will allow the AEB system to recognize a road sign as no threat, but the broadside of a truck as one. If a 15 year-old kid can write a free public domain program that doesn't suffer from these problems (and allows waypoints), you're telling me the experienced programmers that Tesla employs are unable to provide the same capability? After Tesla's trip planner was introduced, a lot of owners, after trying it and experiencing its bugs, went right back to using EV Trip Planner. As I said a few posts back, this doesn't reflect well on Tesla. If they want to try for moonshots, fine, but how about they also take care of taking out the garbage and replacing burned out light bulbs?

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Hahaha. I don't think you have a clue how complicated routing is (or programming). I probably have 14K miles using the trip planner in the Tesla and I've never run across these problems. Rare corner cases is what you are describing.

... back on topic to the GM 200+ mile affordable EV being delivered years before others (Tesla, Nissan, etc) ...

scottf200 said:

Hahaha. I don't think you have a clue how complicated routing is (or programming). I probably have 14K miles using the trip planner in the Tesla and I've never run across these problems. Rare corner cases is what you are describing.

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Scott, If they were so rare they wouldn't be constantly reported by people using it. Feel free to go over to TMC and search "trip planner bugs".

scottf200 said:

... back on topic to the GM 200+ mile affordable EV being delivered years before others (Tesla, Nissan, etc) ...

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Indeed.

GRA said:

My programming experience pretty much starts and ends with teaching myself Microsoft Basic back in the late '70s, but even I could fix this problem, which is orders of magnitude less difficult than writing software that will allow the AEB system to recognize a road sign as no threat, but the broadside of a truck as one. If a 15 year-old kid can write a free public domain program that doesn't suffer from these problems (and allows waypoints), you're telling me the experienced programmers that Tesla employs are unable to provide the same capability? After Tesla's trip planner was introduced, a lot of owners, after trying it and experiencing its bugs, went right back to using EV Trip Planner. As I said a few posts back, this doesn't reflect well on Tesla. If they want to try for moonshots, fine, but how about they also take care of taking out the garbage and replacing burned out light bulbs?

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It's really not a problem at the programmers' level, i.e. it's really an allocation of resources defined by the
OS system planners and especially product marketing. Remember again, there're more critical programming
issues to be addressed with "autopilot".