Chevrolet Bolt & Bolt EUV

[DaveinOlyWA]

Repost from this post:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=22460&start=10#p470858

Biggest disappointment for me was no GPS even with higher trim. Instead the good high-quality central display had a "projection" mode that could display the GPS map from your smart phone.

not gonna lie. your biggest disappointment is a dream come true for me. Even when I had NAV in my 2011, I rarely used it. the interface was a joke, the accuracy even worse. MUCH rather not pay for in house NAV especially when my phone has it, its updated a few times a week, have live traffic updates and all for free...

anyway...

you say the Bolt has more leg room than LEAF in the rear. I understood the Bolt to be a smaller car than the LEAF. is this your impression as well?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

One downside of using a phone app for nav is data usage, unless it works offline.

Google maps has a pretty small footprint data wise. You can also download maps of specific areas off line if you travel them frequently. This does not remove the data completely since there is still real time traffic updates but I use Google Maps EVERY day for work even for places I don't need directions because of the traffic issues we have here and I rarely use greater than 1½ GB a month total. Google Maps generally covers 300-400 MB and yes I am on Wi fi as much as possible but essentially never when driving

 

[ampitupco]

With Apple's CarPlay or Android Auto you literally have your phone maps on your infotainment screen. I can't think of anything better, certainly not the crap nav we are all stuck with now. Losing in car/nav GPS is the future!

 

[DanCar]

... Losing in car/nav GPS is the future!

Perhaps this is the future: http://www.theverge.com/2016/5/18/11700482/android-car-platform-qualcomm-maserati-touchscreen-google-io-2016 Google embeds android auto into your car.

 

[GRA]

... Losing in car/nav GPS is the future!

Perhaps this is the future: http://www.theverge.com/2016/5/18/11700482/android-car-platform-qualcomm-maserati-touchscreen-google-io-2016 Google embeds android auto into your car.

No, the future is when Google embeds Android Auto into You! :shock:

 

[JeffN]

It has been awhile since I've checked in on this thread. Here are a few things I noticed in reading the last month or two of posts:

1. The Volt does not have an induction motor. Both motors are PM but the smaller motor/generator uses ferrite (iron) permanent magnets instead of rare earth magnets. In the Malibu hybrid both motors are rare earth PM. However, the Cadillac CT6 PHEV does actually use an induction design for its smaller motor/generator in its RWD transmission that is an extended version of the Volt/Malibu FWD transmission. In each case the motors have different use cases, duty cycles, efficiency, and cost tradeoffs. These PM motors now use advanced magnet manufacturing techniques to reduce the rare earth metals by as much as 40% versus previous generation motors.

2. The Bolt EV has GPS hardware. It is used in the feature that lets it remember your default settings when charging at home versus other locations. The Bolt will also have builtin navigation with EV enhancements but it might not be ready when first cars ship from the factory. The Bolt's ability to download updates over the air may be used to provide it later.

See:
http://www.hybridcars.com/early-bolt-evs-may-not-have-promised-navigation/

3. The Bolt EV itself is suited for occasional leisurely long-distance driving such as vacation trips. The blocking factor is the availability of DC charging locations. It's already possible to drive 400 miles between LA and San Francisco with 2 DC charging stops at 50 kW chargers. The state has already funded installation of another 41 locations along I-5, CA-99, and US 101 across the state from the Oregon border to San Diego using DMV registration fees and they will be installed over the next couple of years. VW Dieselgate settlement fines will supply an additional $200 million a year for 10 years for zero-carbon infrastructure with $80 million directed to CA. There will be lots of DC 50, 100, and 150 kW chargers soon and the Bolts coming out of the factory this month will be able to use them.

4. Some high-volume Chevrolet dealers in California (and perhaps Oregon) have now been told their allocations (how many they will get to order in the coming month). Within the next month customers will be able to custom order cars with specific trims, colors, and options for delivery beginning in late December.

 

[DanCar]

... There will be lots of DC 50, 100, and 150 kW chargers soon and the Bolts coming out of the factory this month will be able to use them...

Can you quantify what soon means?

Thanks a bunch for the info!

 

[JeffN]

... There will be lots of DC 50, 100, and 150 kW chargers soon and the Bolts coming out of the factory this month will be able to use them...

Can you quantify what soon

I think we will start to see useful installations of 100 and 150 kW stations within 3-4 years because the $$ and charger products will be available and VW (along with other German makers) will have big battery BEVs needing a competitive DC long-distance charging network for cars coming out then.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

... There will be lots of DC 50, 100, and 150 kW chargers soon and the Bolts coming out of the factory this month will be able to use them...

Can you quantify what soon

I think we will start to see useful installations of 100 and 150 kW stations within 3-4 years because the $$ and charger products will be available and VW (along with other German makers) will have big battery BEVs needing a competitive DC long-distance charging network for cars coming out then.

3-4 years feels like an eternity. But then I realize that I've only had my Leaf for 4.5 years. 3-4 years ago, there were zero DCQC in the state of NY, and now there are several within the Bolt's range of me. I know you are talking mostly about west coast development, but the northeast typically isn't far behind. If your predictions are right, we may see significant infrastructure here in maybe 5-6 years. And that would be spectacular!

 

[edatoakrun]

The reality of Bolt sales, how-many-sold-at-what-price, will be limited, IMO, by the alternatives parked next to it on the Chevy dealers' lots.

I think the Bolt may cannibalize Volt sales significantly, if the actual discounted lease prices are similar.

But I wonder how either will sell compared to what is the far cheaper, more practical (and subjectively, better looking) option to either the B or V, whether gas or (later) diesel fueled:

...Chevrolet’s diesel-powered Cruze hatchback -- the brand’s first compact hatchback available in North America -- could be the first nonhybrid car this century to achieve 50 mpg on the highway.

GM officials said Tuesday the Cruze hatchback will get an optional 1.6-liter turbodiesel in the 2018 model year. The fuel-efficient engine will be paired with a nine-speed automatic transmission or a six-speed manual...

http://www.autonews.com/article/20161011/OEM04/161019959/1657

 

[lorenfb]

But I wonder how either will sell compared to what is the far cheaper, more practical (and subjectively, better looking) option to either the B or V, whether gas or (later) diesel fueled:

That has always been and will continue to be an issue for the consumer, when making choices irrespective of the product.

 

[edatoakrun]

But I wonder how either will sell compared to what is the far cheaper, more practical (and subjectively, better looking) option to either the B or V, whether gas or (later) diesel fueled:

That has always been and will continue to be an issue for the consumer, when making choices irrespective of the product.

GM has exacerbated that issue, IMO, by offering the Bolt only with a a "60 kWh" (between 60 to 68 kWh total?) ATM battery pack, making it non-competitive with ICEVs in terms of cost to produce.

The extent to which public subsidies and GM's promotional goals will lower the actual cost to buyers/lessees remains to be seen.

In the unlikely event GM decides to be offer Bolts essentially for free to CA lessees, as it previously has with its Spark E, I may well take it up on its offer myself...

 

[TonyWilliams]

The VW payments to California are $200 million every 2.5 years... $800 million over ten years.

The wording of the dieselgate settlement is for "zero emission"... not EV stuff. Expect the hydrogen lobby to get a HUGE percentage of that, in addition to the $20 million every year ($200 million over ten years) already allocated by Governor Brown.

There is absolutely no guarantee that the state will ever use 150-350kW chargers.

 

[brian0123]

I want to like the Bolt... but then realize it's a Chevy. Even though it's an EV, I'd have nightmares that my AC will fall apart and random electrical problems will occur. That's what happened on my "highly rated" Equinox I ditched last year. AC was replaced 3 times by Chevy, electrical problems and engine stalls kept occurring just after warranty ended... so I gave up on that piece of junk.

 

[GRA]

Can you quantify what soon

I think we will start to see useful installations of 100 and 150 kW stations within 3-4 years because the $$ and charger products will be available and VW (along with other German makers) will have big battery BEVs needing a competitive DC long-distance charging network for cars coming out then.

3-4 years feels like an eternity. But then I realize that I've only had my Leaf for 4.5 years. 3-4 years ago, there were zero DCQC in the state of NY, and now there are several within the Bolt's range of me. I know you are talking mostly about west coast development, but the northeast typically isn't far behind. If your predictions are right, we may see significant infrastructure here in maybe 5-6 years. And that would be spectacular!

Along that line, via GCC:

ITT introducing next-gen ultra-fast DC charging system; tested 400A at 1000V

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/10/20161012-itt.html

ITT, through its Cannon brand, will introduce a next-generation, ultra-fast DC charging solution that can significantly reduce electric vehicle charging time at eCarTec 2016 in Munich next week. ITT will debut the high-performance, cooled ultra-fast charging DC solution as well as an improved contact system for its global portfolio of AC charging solutions.

• One of the main obstacles to widespread adoption of electric vehicles is lengthy charging times. Our new cooled ultra-fast DC charging system delivers the charge required for 60 miles/100km within 3 to 5 minutes—a charging speed that will help accelerate public adoption of electric vehicles.
  
  —Gary Ashurst, vice president and general manager of the ITT Interconnect Solutions transportation and industrial business unit

The liquid-cooled connector and cable design enables ultra-fast EV charge cycles with tested amperages of 400A at 1000V. The high power density is facilitated by a dielectric cooling liquid that runs from the cable throughout the connector’s contact system. The solution has a weight optimized cable design and minimized cable diameter, delivering a highly flexible, ergonomic and easy-to-use solution. . . .

 

[jlv]

I want to like the Bolt... but then realize it's a Chevy. Even though it's an EV, I'd have nightmares that my AC will fall apart and random electrical problems will occur.

That is my gut feeling about the Bolt. It was the same with the Volt (which I was considering when I got my LEAF). As a counter point, here at work there are almost 20 people with Volts and none report any of these sort of "GM" issues.

 

[edatoakrun]

I want to like the Bolt... but then realize it's a Chevy. Even though it's an EV, I'd have nightmares that my AC will fall apart and random electrical problems will occur. That's what happened on my "highly rated" Equinox I ditched last year. AC was replaced 3 times by Chevy...

At least you could still drive your ICEV without AC until you could schedule the trips to the dealer for repairs.

Any BEV with AC based ATM and an insulated pack (not clear if the Bolt pack is insulated or not, anyone know?) should be expected to soon become undrivable due to pack overheating, if any component of the AC system fails.

 

[JeffN]

Any BEV with AC based ATM and an insulated pack (not clear if the Bolt pack is insulated or not, anyone know?) should be expected to soon become undrivable due to pack overheating, if any component of the AC system fails.

As far as the Volt, the pack is insulated. In cool or modest conditions the pack is thermally managed by circulating liquid through a radiator with a fan. A/C system cooling for the battery pack is only necessary when the outside temperature gets above 85-90F.

In the worst case with hotter outside temperatures and a failed A/C system I'm pretty confident the car would still be drivable. It has a "reduced propulsion" mode that only uses the battery pack to start the gas engine and then otherwise leaves the pack unused and drives like a diesel locomotive entirely in series mode. This causes the gas engine to always be running even when stopped and it spins up at higher rpms and has more sluggish acceleration -- but it is drivable.

I had a failed circuit board in the battery pack (a very rare problem) after 100,000 miles of driving. The car automatically switched to this series fallback mode and I was able to do my 100 mile daily commute for 2-3 weeks until the part arrived so the dealer could replace it.

This happened on my 2011 Volt which has a real series mode. The 2nd generation Volt starting in 2016 no longer has a real series mode so it might be harder for them to juggle the power levels between the gas engine, smaller generator motor, and larger traction motor without having the battery around as a buffer but I'm guessing they can still make a "no battery" reduced propulsion mode work.

I assume the Bolt EV pack is similarly insulated and cooled with a radiator and with an A/C connection when necessary. The Bolt EV cells are said to be a little more heat tolerant than the Volt cells. Obviously, the Bolt EV cannot fallback on the gas engine if the A/C aspect of the battery pack cooling system fails in hot weather. I don't know what they have designed the car to do in that circumstance. I'm guessing it will have a "reduced propulsion" mode that limits power in/out levels (particularly regeneration) rather than leaving you stranded. It may be more likely to refuse to charge under those conditions in hot weather if the A/C is broken.

 

[Durandal]

I want to like the Bolt... but then realize it's a Chevy. Even though it's an EV, I'd have nightmares that my AC will fall apart and random electrical problems will occur. That's what happened on my "highly rated" Equinox I ditched last year. AC was replaced 3 times by Chevy, electrical problems and engine stalls kept occurring just after warranty ended... so I gave up on that piece of junk.

Thanks for posting this. I had been considering a used Volt for next year to replace my wife's car before the power train warranty on it runs out, but I may need to consider alternatives. I'm getting sick of newer vehicles having so many problems. Her 2014 Versa has all sorts of issues with the CVT that Nissan considers "normal."

 

[edatoakrun]

Any BEV with AC based ATM and an insulated pack (not clear if the Bolt pack is insulated or not, anyone know?) should be expected to soon become undrivable due to pack overheating, if any component of the AC system fails.

...I assume the Bolt EV pack is similarly insulated and cooled with a radiator and with an A/C connection when necessary. The Bolt EV cells are said to be a little more heat tolerant than the Volt cells... It may be more likely to refuse to charge under those conditions in hot weather if the A/C is broken.

None of the photos, illustrations or descriptions I've seen show any attempt was made to insulate the Bolt pack, which (if so) is probably a good idea.

The bolt Pack looks essentially like a conductively cooled sealed pack (like the LEAF) with supplementary cooling provided by the AC system to conductive surfaces, via a fluid coolant loop.

Batteries generate heat not only when charging from the grid, but also during discharge or regenerative charging, so any BEV whose pack overheats might me expected to be shut down by its BMS while driving, not only while stopped.

This is nearly impossible to experience in a conductively-cooled battery like the LEAF, but obviously would be very easy to experience in any BEV with an insulated pack with ATM failure.

I can't recall any Tesla owners commenting on this happening to them (yet) but there are many complaints from Tesla (and other ATM BEV owners) of their cars prioritizing Battery cooling, over cabin cooling.