Why do you want QC charging for the Leaf?

[JeremyW]

Are you paying the actual amount (including a profit) to the station owner at the base of the San Bernardino mountains? You say you would, but you don't say if you are. If so, cool, I hope he continues to provide it and finds it profitable. Obviously he's going to need a lot of customers though.

The station is currently free. There's been some talk about payment of course, but the current owner seems to have deep pockets. I know that's not sustainable, but give it time. Eaton is coming out with a replacement door with payment and hooks into the Chargepoint network. I have no idea how much he eventually will charge for a charge.

The same question would be asked about the Vegas stations. And, I'll add that I wouldn't have sat for a couple of hours to get to Vegas when I was young. I'd have taken my ICE. I think most folks still will. I can't imagine range anxiety in a desert where there's a station that you hope is working when you get there.

How much was gas when you were young? What if sitting for two hours saved you $50 in gas? And over the (very) long term, there's not going to be just one or two stations out in the desert. Remember, gas infrastructure has 100 year head start on us. Look up the history of gas pumps to really get a sense of the progress that was made to make filling up a quick affair. It wasn't always this easy to get gas for your car.

I'd like to point out that once the word gets out that a trip is even *possible* it makes people go "huh" and realize the future is closer then they think. I can't emphasize enough that QC is a huge marketing tool. And yes, I too think its amazing that it's even possible. The developments in power electronics over the last 10-15 years has been revolutionary. People need to know that electric cars can charge fast. People love it, even if they won't even use it all that often. It makes a great safety blanket, no matter what size the pack and corresponding range is.

I like to recite Randy's trip to SLO, which was done with mostly L2, and people generally are impressed that there is even enough public infrastructure to make that possible. I also mention Randy incorporated a lot of side excursions while the car was charging that made the trip quite a fun adventure. There's a few who seem to have that pioneer spirit in them that, after hearing of the trek, seem almost inspired by the limitations of the car.

The key to bringing the electric car to the masses is to make the experience fun and exciting. People will gladly pay for fun. Fun means a lot of different things to people: some will love it for the performance, some will love it for the silence, some will love it for the gas savings, others will love the challenge of trying to maximize the range. Whatever the reason, we need everyone on board with the electric car because we must leave oil before it leaves us. And we need to do so NOW.

Jeremy

 

[HighDesertDriver]

We have driven our Leaf over 11,000 miles and will likely pass 15,000 in the first year of ownership. We have not driven it more than 30 miles from home, and with the exception of only 5 times of L2 for an hour or so at a Nissan dealer 29.7 miles away, all charging has been at home. A few well-placed QC facilities in the San Fernando Valley and LA basin area would allow us convenient access to the LAX and BUR airports, shopping centers, beaches, and medical facilities 60-70 miles from home. By "convenient access" I mean by use of the freeways (not necessarily at 70mph) and without requiring 4-5 hours somewhere along the way for L2.

We purchased our Leaf with the knowledge that it would work for our local 60-mile round-trip driving and hope that it would someday be practical for 100- to 160-mile R/Ts. We truly love the Leaf, but would not consider it for our longer 360- to 500-mile one-way trips because of luggage capacity, comfort, and the need and time involved with recharging along the way. It is an outstanding choice for 80% of our mileage, and with QC, it could probably exceed 90%.

 

[smkettner]

70 miles Palmdale to LAX. OK drop off does not work but if you are traveling you can charge at the airport and park for free while you travel.
I suppose that hill would be some concern on the return.

And you are right with QC the trip is easy and stress free even for drop off.

I am just 50 miles (flat) and it has worked wonderfully. Would be very difficult on single charge round trip.

 

[camasleaf]

Why do I want QC charging for the Leaf?

It will allow me to go to the beach. It is one trip my wife loves and when if the QC in Banks, OR comes on line then we can do it gas free. But I would not plan for any trips that require more than one full QC each way.

The second reason was that when the car range drops to 50%, the QC will still allow me to do all the local trips without any issues.

The third reason is that QC is the only way we will be able to charge away from home when the number of plug in vehicles will increase considerable.

 

[garsh]

what kind of driving do you do?

I bought my Leaf to be my commuter vehicle, and for local running-around. I have a 60-mile round-trip commute, and my company offers free L2 charging. As an electrical engineer, I was intrigued by the notion of owning a practical electric car, backed by a major manufacturer warranty. But it also made good financial sense for me, given the free charging, $7500 federal tax incentive, and $3500 PA state rebate.

We were already a two-vehicle family, so we also have an ICE for any other driving we need to do. If I had to choose between taking the Leaf on a 100-mile trip with one QC stop, or taking the ICE, I would choose the ICE to save the time.

 

[edatoakrun]

what kind of driving do you do?

I bought my Leaf to be my commuter vehicle, and for local running-around. I have a 60-mile round-trip commute, and my company offers free L2 charging. As an electrical engineer, I was intrigued by the notion of owning a practical electric car, backed by a major manufacturer warranty. But it also made good financial sense for me, given the free charging, $7500 federal tax incentive, and $3500 PA state rebate.

We were already a two-vehicle family, so we also have an ICE for any other driving we need to do. If I had to choose between taking the Leaf on a 100-mile trip with one QC stop, or taking the ICE, I would choose the ICE to save the time.

Personally, I'd take about a 10 minute DC, and save the cash.

A 20 kWh home charge costs me about a buck (PG&E E9) and say the other 8 kWh from DC might cost about $3, at 30-something cents per kWh.

About $10 in savings over an ICEV, getting 30 mpg, at current gas prices here in North California.

But then, I've been called a cheap hillbilly, more than once...

 

[SanDust]

If I had to choose between taking the Leaf on a 100-mile trip with one QC stop, or taking the ICE, I would choose the ICE to save the time.

+1. The other way of saying this is that there is a reason why ICE vehicles don't have three gallon gas tanks.

Here is the back of the napkin on the economics of DC charging. Over five years, between installation, charger, maintenance, and demand charges, operating a DC charger will probably cost $300,000. At $10 a pop, which many here find outrageous, you'd need 30,000 vehicle charging events over five years or 6,000 charging events each year to break even. But we don't want one charger we want a network of chargers. If you had 100 DC fast chargers in CA you'd need 600,000 charging events per year.

That's the cost side. On the demand side, I don't know how many Leafs we have in CA but it can't be more than 3K or 4K. This means that in order to support 100 DC fast chargers we'd need every Leaf to be paying $10 for a DC charge 150 times per year.

Doesn't seem likely.

 

[EcoCarRental]

Here is the back of the napkin on the economics of DC charging. Over five years, between installation, charger, maintenance, and demand charges, operating a DC charger will probably cost $300,000.

[/quote]
I would like to know how you get to $300k over five years, could you break it down into the various cost components? Thanks,

Shaun

 

[edatoakrun]

"EcoCarRental"

Here is the back of the napkin on the economics of DC charging. Over five years, between installation, charger, maintenance, and demand charges, operating a DC charger will probably cost $300,000.

I would like to know how you get to $300k over five years, could you break it down into the various cost components? Thanks,

Shaun

As to costs, SanDust just takes a realistic estimate, and adds a zero...

As to revenue, SanDust ignores the fact that that fuel sales for BEVs (even more so, than is the present case for ICEVs) will likely evolve into a loss-leader for other sales at the Charge-point.

DC charge points will probably compete keenly on kWh prices, in order to have a customer for food, beverages, and other convenience purchases.

 

[DANandNAN]

Are you paying the actual amount (including a profit) to the station owner at the base of the San Bernardino mountains? You say you would, but you don't say if you are. If so, cool, I hope he continues to provide it and finds it profitable. Obviously he's going to need a lot of customers though.

The station is currently free. There's been some talk about payment of course, but the current owner seems to have deep pockets. I know that's not sustainable, but give it time. Eaton is coming out with a replacement door with payment and hooks into the Chargepoint network. I have no idea how much he eventually will charge for a charge.

The same question would be asked about the Vegas stations. And, I'll add that I wouldn't have sat for a couple of hours to get to Vegas when I was young. I'd have taken my ICE. I think most folks still will. I can't imagine range anxiety in a desert where there's a station that you hope is working when you get there.

How much was gas when you were young? What if sitting for two hours saved you $50 in gas? And over the (very) long term, there's not going to be just one or two stations out in the desert. Remember, gas infrastructure has 100 year head start on us. Look up the history of gas pumps to really get a sense of the progress that was made to make filling up a quick affair. It wasn't always this easy to get gas for your car.

I'd like to point out that once the word gets out that a trip is even *possible* it makes people go "huh" and realize the future is closer then they think. I can't emphasize enough that QC is a huge marketing tool. And yes, I too think its amazing that it's even possible. The developments in power electronics over the last 10-15 years has been revolutionary. People need to know that electric cars can charge fast. People love it, even if they won't even use it all that often. It makes a great safety blanket, no matter what size the pack and corresponding range is.

I like to recite Randy's trip to SLO, which was done with mostly L2, and people generally are impressed that there is even enough public infrastructure to make that possible. I also mention Randy incorporated a lot of side excursions while the car was charging that made the trip quite a fun adventure. There's a few who seem to have that pioneer spirit in them that, after hearing of the trek, seem almost inspired by the limitations of the car.

The key to bringing the electric car to the masses is to make the experience fun and exciting. People will gladly pay for fun. Fun means a lot of different things to people: some will love it for the performance, some will love it for the silence, some will love it for the gas savings, others will love the challenge of trying to maximize the range. Whatever the reason, we need everyone on board with the electric car because we must leave oil before it leaves us. And we need to do so NOW.

Jeremy

Hey! When I was young! I'm still young, sort of When I was young gas under a buck I worked at a job to make the money to drive, but I get your point although I'm not sure why it's $50 in gas saved. DC charging 4-6 times to go there and come back won't be cheap (at least not once stations stop getting subsidized).

I agree that EV will be way more appealing when it's fun - and sitting at a charging station in the Nevada desert isn't fun. Sitting for an hour when you're on a road trip trying to get somewhere isn't fun. That's why we need better batteries that limit the need for charging stations, not more charging stations to cover up the lack of battery range. If we're going to apply a Band-Aid to these short range batteries then at least make fast charging FAST.

 

[DANandNAN]

what kind of driving do you do?

I bought my Leaf to be my commuter vehicle, and for local running-around. I have a 60-mile round-trip commute, and my company offers free L2 charging. As an electrical engineer, I was intrigued by the notion of owning a practical electric car, backed by a major manufacturer warranty. But it also made good financial sense for me, given the free charging, $7500 federal tax incentive, and $3500 PA state rebate.

We were already a two-vehicle family, so we also have an ICE for any other driving we need to do. If I had to choose between taking the Leaf on a 100-mile trip with one QC stop, or taking the ICE, I would choose the ICE to save the time.

Personally, I'd take about a 10 minute DC, and save the cash.

A 20 kWh home charge costs me about a buck (PG&E E9) and say the other 8 kWh from DC might cost about $3, at 30-something cents per kWh.

About $10 in savings over an ICEV, getting 30 mpg, at current gas prices here in North California.

But then, I've been called a cheap hillbilly, more than once...

10 minute DC, and then what? You do have to get home again.

 

[DANandNAN]

Here is the back of the napkin on the economics of DC charging. Over five years, between installation, charger, maintenance, and demand charges, operating a DC charger will probably cost $300,000.

I would like to know how you get to $300k over five years, could you break it down into the various cost components? Thanks,

Shaun

As a business owner what do your numbers say?

 

[DANandNAN]

As to costs, SanDust just takes a realistic estimate, and adds a zero...

As to revenue, SanDust ignores the fact that that fuel sales for BEVs (even more so, than is the present case for ICEVs) will likely evolve into a loss-leader for other sales at the Charge-point.

DC charge points will probably compete keenly on kWh prices, in order to have a customer for food, beverages, and other convenience purchases.

Wow, that's really different than what I read here

And we haven't compensated the host in any way,

Your equipment creates a customer that is captive for 30+ minutes. The host should pay you for each customer you bring in.

WOW !!!! I had a gut wrenching laugh out of that one. Thanks!!!

So, according to you, Blink can't give these away to hosts with $120 million of your tax dollars, but you think the host should pay to have them. Keep on thinking.

Quite the reverse is more likely. With NRG now "required" to install 200 quick chargers in California over four years, I think you'll see them paying hosts for the privilege of using their parking spot. Then, when LEAF drivers only use them "for emergencies" (which means almost never), or just drives the Prius because the minimum charge is $7 (up to $15), they will fail, HUGE.

Hey, some good news for the utilities, like SCE. if they collect $1500 in demand charges, and now NOBODY uses the charger at all for the next 12 months, they can still charge $1500 month for the demand charge ($18,000 for the year). Awesome, huh?

I don't want anybody to take from this that if there just wasn't a demand fee, all would be well. It won't. As long as there are free chargers around, like Mitsubishi in Cypress, it will take away from sites that need the traffic just to break even. Free chargers are a detriment to the expansion of more chargers. Demand charges are a detriment. High installation costs are a detriment. High electricity costs (again, up to $1 at SDGE) are a detriment. High insurance is a detriment. Host reluctance (for all the aforementioned reasons, and more) is a detriment. High maintenance on these chargers is a detriment.

But none of that compares to the very customers who wouldnt use and pay for it anyway.

 

[EcoCarRental]

Shaun As a business owner what do your numbers say?

I don't know what the cost is, that's why I'm asking how SanDust came up with $300k over 5 years. I'm sure location/state can make a big difference in overall costs. I know of two gas station owners on Maui that are interested in QC, so I want to find out more of what the real cost of QC is. The good news for Maui EV drivers (with QC option) is that there is a group from Japan (NEDO) who will be installing 5 QC on Maui, in conjunction with smart grid technology, sometime in the next year or two. You can view a presentation they made at the one day conference April 27 "Plug-in Maui: Challenges & Opportunities" - http://mauieva.org/docs/Ttakadakzy 20120427NEDOtakada.pdf.

Shaun

 

[edatoakrun]

"DANandNAN"

As to costs, SanDust just takes a realistic estimate, and adds a zero...

As to revenue, SanDust ignores the fact that that fuel sales for BEVs (even more so, than is the present case for ICEVs) will likely evolve into a loss-leader for other sales at the Charge-point.

DC charge points will probably compete keenly on kWh prices, in order to have a customer for food, beverages, and other convenience purchases.

Wow, that's really different than what I read here...

Attempting to dispute my comment, by quoting another contributor, only makes you appear as a second-rate troll.

If you wish to troll more effectively, find something I have written, that supports your point of view.

With close to 1,200 posts on this forum, I'm sure you can find something, that you can take out of context, to present a disingenuous argument. I'll even start you out, with my comments from 16 months ago, on this subject.

Happy reading.

I do not understand Nissan USA's apparent reluctance to contribute to the development of the public fast charge infrastructure.

Billions of dollars have been invested by Nissan in designing and producing the LEAF. IMO the design and concept is far superior to any of the "plug-in" or ICE "conversions" that will enter the market in the next few years. But there is currently a glaring failure in the LEAF concept to any potential American buyer. Nissan is allowing it's EV competitors to beat it up over "range anxiety" and slower level 2 charge times.

The total cost of a DC fast charger installation is reported to be only $5,000-$25,000, before various subsidies and tax credits. Why Is Nissan not making any effort to promote DC infrastructure development? This is by far the most cost-effective way to increase the range and practically of the Leaf to current (any of you owners even used a DC charger yet?) and future drivers.

EV drivers do not need fast charging at home or at the dealer. They need to be able to get an occasional fast charge on the road BETWEEN destinations.

Until roadside charging becomes a reality, EV/ICE half-breeds like the Volt will be named "car of the year", and actual EV's will be considered fringe products...

Eventually, fast charging must be a profitable market. It will not be until a sufficient number of EV's are on the road, just as LEAF sales will not be profitable until sales number in the hundreds of thousands-at least. Nissan has made the strategic decision to absorb current vehicle production losses as it's long range profit strategy. Waiting for other entities to provide the missing piece of the LEAF, the L3 chargers, may prove to be a strategic blunder...

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2374" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[LEAFfan]

SanDust may be using the cost of the Blink QC which is between $60K and $80K. He may not know there is a less than $10K QC coming soon from Nissan. He needs to do some refiguring for these much less expensive chargers.

 

[Randy]

LEAFfan,
The info I picked up directly from the AV rep at EVS26 (who will be distributing the Nissan / Sumitomo DC Fast Charge unit when it arrives soon) is that the indoor unit will be about $15K and the outdoor weatherized unit will sell for about $25K...Better than the $50K or $60K units now, but it won't be as fully featured either (according to the AV rep again)...

 

[DANandNAN]

Attempting to dispute my comment, by quoting another contributor, only makes you appear as a second-rate troll.

If you wish to troll more effectively, find something I have written, that supports your point of view.

With close to 1,200 posts on this forum, I'm sure you can find something, that you can take out of context, to present a disingenuous argument. I'll even start you out, with my comments from 16 months ago, on this subject.

What are you talking about? I didn't search his history. That was a conversation he had with me.
I didn't dig something up from the long ago, that was from last week. How is it trolling to post something someone, who was attempting to become a station owner, said, a week ago? If you think I took Tony Williams' post out of context PLEASE read the thread. I cited it. I took nothing out of context, which you'll see if you read the thread. Here, I'll post it again http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=8854" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Everything starts off well enough and goes downhill quickly as owners tell him they don't want to pay what a profitable station needs to charge. Here's a reply to the person who made the original suggestion.

Laugh all you want. Why is Walgreens putting in L3? Just for the green kicker or to actually attact customers? Or to get some customers that will shop a bit more, not just run in for a $2 item and leave.

What if you had a lower cost solution to provide the same service to their customers?

It kinda sounds like the impromptu I get from somebody selling their religion to me... ya, what if. No kidding.

Cracker Barrel and Walgreens seem to know something we don't know, right? Good luck to them (of course, 99.99999999999% of us don't own a retail chain, and those of us that do are not gambling big bucks on DC charging. The proof is in the result.

Certainly, I'd love for Crackle Barrel and Walgreens to be the norm. I'm about a block from our local Walgreens with an L2. Works great, and gives me an excuse to buy a big ice tea. I'm not sure how much I would pay to use that service, however.

As for Walgreen DC charging, I don't believe we have one in California (actually, I know we don't). I would absolutely be happy to pay for the service if it were here.

Back to your original point of retailers paying to get a DC charger, all I can say is "good luck".

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=8854&start=80#p198058" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Again, I didn't take anything out of context. I didn't search his posts, it was a discussion that I was involved in and following.

And, name calling and insults? Really? That's your level of communication? I understand our opinions differ on something that no one here has any actual control over, but don't let it get to you. Hopefully just a minor slip up.

 

[kubel]

The LEAF, for me, is a practical commuter and a fun runabout. With quick charging, it can do both. But I don't see quick charge being practical for long distance trips at 30 minutes for 50 miles or so of range, nor economically viable at $10,000 per station if its only other purpose is to refill for unexpected out-of-range errands.

If you want one car that can do extended range, buy a Volt and burn some gas. I don't see quick charge ever succeeding without the battery technology to go with it. And I hope we aren't basing the success of BEVs on whether or not there will be QC infrastructure. There won't be infrastructure any time soon because there is no ROI on a $10,000 station that delivers a relatively cheap product. Having government sustain it is not going to fly- especially when we are about to face austerity and growing minarchist views amongst the voting public.

I say keep BEVs as commuters and runabouts. Leave long distance trips for the gas burners. When battery technology catches up, let me know. Then I'll consider QC because the purpose of BEVs may change as well.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

...10 minute DC, and then what? You do have to get home again.

Dan, you seem amazingly worked up and anti QC for the fact that you have zero experience with it. I would ask you to imagine back before you bought your Volt and think about how different the world looked before you actually got real world experience with one and now imagine that when you get your Leaf that your eyes are opened up in equally unexpected ways, but to a vehicle that is designed to meet the needs of a different and perhaps complementary market niche. The leaf is not designed for cross country trips but with Quick Charging, medium range driving is opened up without having to drive around and maintain two drive trains. Is there a broad market for it? Time will tell. There are lots of scenarios where a 10 minute QC would be a great option vs hours of sitting around, particularly for me when I'm driving with my family of 4. The money spent now on the sample QC network on the west coast is, in the big picture, peanuts. A lot of folks are about to find out if QC's are all their cracked up to be... take a chill pill, give it some time, give it a rest. No offense meant, I just don't get why a volt owner would get on a Leaf forum and dog every thread about quick charging, maybe you need a vacation or something.