Why do you want QC charging for the Leaf?

[Smidge204]

Smidge,
Stop whining about subsidies until youfully understand the true cost of cutting them

true cost of cutting them? People have to pay $8-$10 per gallon of gasoline like they do everywhere else in the world. I wonder how they all manage to get by when $8/gal means, according to you, that nobody would ever be able to afford anything, including food and clothing. :roll:

It will be a painful transition, but that pain is nothing compared to what will very likely happen if we stick to the status quo. The result will be a sustainable economy, sustainable ecology, political stability and improved public health.

It's like getting over a heroin addiction; Withdrawal will hurt but that doesn't mean buying more drugs is a better option in the end. The sooner you quit the less it will hurt, too.
=Smidge=

 

[DANandNAN]

 

[Smidge204]

How can you not understand that we can't just transition to another country's economic structure overnight, or even in a year or two? Businesses were shutting down, folks lost their jobs and food cost more last year, and that was just as it approached $6. You obviously don't remember or ever read about the 70's gas crisis either.

Civilization didn't end in 1973, so thanks for bringing that up. People adjusted, found alternatives, and took steps to secure their future. Yeah, is sucked for a lot of people, but society as a whole survived. I would fully welcome a second, longer lasting and even self-imposed oil crisis NOW than wait another 10, 20, 30 years when it will be completely involuntary and do far more damage.

The transition has already started. It will take decades still. I think it can go faster - I think we can survive a little more pain for the sake of getting over the hump. But it's already happening as our transition away from fossil fuels is inevitable. We're going to have to stop withdrawing from our million-year-old energy bank account either now, while there's still some left, or when it's completely gone and we have no alternative in place.

What you are advocating is essentially the end of civilization. The road you're on is a dead-end. You are not considering anything beyond your own lifespan, if you even consider anything that far ahead. What I'm advocating is a drastic shift in civilization so that it may continue. Sorry if you feel inconvenienced that your lifestyle may have to change as a result. I have no intention of letting asshats like you run this whole planet into the ground to preserve the status quo.

And if you think I'm overstating things or characterizing your position, say something to prove me wrong. Bring facts, 'cause we can use your particular brand of bullshit as fuel.

I give up

Don't be a tease.
=Smidge=

 

[KJD]

Smidge,
Stop whining about subsidies until youfully understand the true cost of cutting them

true cost of cutting them? People have to pay $8-$10 per gallon of gasoline like they do everywhere else in the world. I wonder how they all manage to get by when $8/gal means, according to you, that nobody would ever be able to afford anything, including food and clothing. :roll:

It will be a painful transition, but that pain is nothing compared to what will very likely happen if we stick to the status quo. The result will be a sustainable economy, sustainable ecology, political stability and improved public health.

It's like getting over a heroin addiction; Withdrawal will hurt but that doesn't mean buying more drugs is a better option in the end. The sooner you quit the less it will hurt, too.
=Smidge=

Is it? Is it really like getting over a heroin addiction?

How can you not understand that we can't just transition to another country's economic structure overnight, or even in a year or two? Businesses were shutting down, folks lost their jobs and food cost more last year, and that was just as it approached $6. You obviously don't remember or ever read about the 70's gas crisis either.

I give up, if you think doubling the price of gas will be so easy I really don't know what else to say.

I think Smidge hit it right on the head. Oil is like a herion addiction otherwise we would have given it up long ago. The USA would be a lot better off if gas prices were higher. That Trillion dollar war in Iraq, was just one big oil subsidy, nothing more.

If you do not know what to say Dan, why don't you just shut up and go away. We would all be a lot better off without your GM cheerleading here. We are sick of hearing it.

The thing that really bothers me about you Dan is Leaf owners and Volt owners have a lot more in common than you realize. If you were not constantly starting rock fights between the two groups, maybe we could figure out how to break our addiction to oil.

This argument about Quick Charging is so senseless. It is almost as senseless as your tag line about a Volt can not be turtled.

Here is a tag line for you Dan. A real EV does not have an exhaust pipe or a gas tank. Your Volt is nothing more than an overpriced hybrid.

When GM puts a real EV on the road with a REAL quick charge port, then we can argue about which one is best, until then all you have is vaporware.

 

[DANandNAN]

 

[DaveEV]

ALL:

The heated QC discussion is -->this<-- close to getting shut down for good. Last few posts are over the line. Clean it up.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

the oil price shocks this country has seen is really only the beginning but we are lucky in that we have the time to adjust. EVs is part of it but what really benefited us is the time to develop a 47 MPG Fusion or a 40 MPG gas Focus because if we had not had those gas price spikes, neither of those cars would be here today.

Japanese Auto manufacturers who have had high gas prices for decades basically took over the entire mid to low end of the pricing structure with a multitude of cars that got 30+ MPG AND had enough room for the family. up until that "point", American manufacturers did not see the "point". they thought they could live without making good compact cars and they almost died because of it (actually other than Ford, they were basically brought back to life)

so we have been warned. now the next question is what are we going to do about it?


DANandNAN; you are "right" in that $8 gas will be a shock but only if it happens over night which will not happen, but it will happen. of that there is no doubt. we have probably 5-10 years (probably closer to 5) before it does so we do have time to prepare. over the recent past, gas prices has risen "about" a quarter a year.

it runs about $3.30 in Winter/spring then shoots up to $4 for the Summer, we bitch, small car sales skyrocket, everyone wants a used Prius. then gas prices drop to $3.55 come fall/winter and everyone thinks they are getting a bargain. the Priuses get sold and out comes the SUVs...

then the next summer its $4.25 (at least here it is, but we one of the 4 all on west coast that are paying higher prices this month than last) and we bitch and right now most car dealers are charging a $5,000 "market adjustment" for hybrids and people are still buying them.

we have a 2013 Escape coming out with a 1.6 L Ecoboost engine that will do 33 MPG on the highway and everyone wants one. cant sell a 2012 anymore (the 2012 Hybrids were practically sold out literally days after it was announced that Ford discontinued the option). But that was a direct result of the gas price shocks. without high gas prices the best you would have seen is a 26 mpg Escape with a standard 3L engine

one parting shot; every new technology created industries that were completely unthought of in advance. each new industry will replace an older, less useful, and most likely less efficient industry and someone will be unable to learn or adjust to the times.

that has been going on ever since the stone mason started bitching about all them "new fangled" bronze crap at the stone age Walmart

 

[TomT]

Actually, in many of those places around the world they DO have to go without much of what we would consider necessities in the U.S...

true cost of cutting them? People have to pay $8-$10 per gallon of gasoline like they do everywhere else in the world. I wonder how they all manage to get by when $8/gal means, according to you, that nobody would ever be able to afford anything, including food and clothing. :roll:

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Actually, in many of those places around the world they DO have to go without much of what we would consider necessities in the U.S...

true cost of cutting them? People have to pay $8-$10 per gallon of gasoline like they do everywhere else in the world. I wonder how they all manage to get by when $8/gal means, according to you, that nobody would ever be able to afford anything, including food and clothing. :roll:

do tell, what are these necessities Europeans are doing without? fast food? 2-3 gaming systems per household (survey results that i did not bother to save since it was not in my area of interest) or maybe the nearly 4 TVs per household?

 

[GRA]

Actually, in many of those places around the world they DO have to go without much of what we would consider necessities in the U.S...

true cost of cutting them? People have to pay $8-$10 per gallon of gasoline like they do everywhere else in the world. I wonder how they all manage to get by when $8/gal means, according to you, that nobody would ever be able to afford anything, including food and clothing. :roll:

do tell, what are these necessities Europeans are doing without? fast food? 2-3 gaming systems per household (survey results that i did not bother to save since it was not in my area of interest) or maybe the nearly 4 TVs per household?

At the moment, jobs and a solvent banking system would be kind of high on the list. While I'm not saying that subsidies to the oil industry are a good thing, the fact is that most of the difference between U.S. and European gas prices is due to higher taxes, which in their case go into their general funds. This despite the fact that Europe as a whole isn't paying anywhere near what we do in terms of military forces to maintain access to middle eastern oil; they've been getting a nearly free ride off us for decades, which allows them to spend far more on social issues (or overspend, as politicians here and there are seemingly unable to take unpopular steps to balance budgets).

 

[smkettner]

I firmly believe most of the subsidy for oil etc would come from oil company's profit.
I don't think you will just add the price of the subsidy onto the price of gasoline.
Just saying it will never hurt as much at the pump as the dollar amount might imply.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

shaky foundations in banking and employment i dont consider to be solely a European condition. we are in better condition only because we had farther to fall and a much larger government to bail us out. if we had been the size of Spain or Greece, we would be just as bad off as they are.

and better is a relative term. neither area has fully recovered to even an acceptable level of performance. but then again, this is what is paramount in the news right now so its an easy example.

i am lucky enough to live in an area that was not hit that hard by the jobs issues. sure we were near 8-9% for a while but many parts of THIS country would gladly have changed places with us.

our real estate market has come back to about 70% of where it was which is ok because we did not belong in that previous space to begin with but that does not help out the people who bought just before the bubble burst.

but the whole world has yet to realize that too much money is going too few places. entertainment is what we all seem to spend money on and its out of control. professional Sports is pricing itself out of the market that made them rich. the upper middle class is a dying breed because the cost of services and certain goods has increased at a steady pace for decades but most pay structures have not so what used to be a nice paying job is now only enough to survive. that might not be so bad for some who have done that job for 15 or 20 years but that really hurts the 20 something who has to start out at what is effectively a much lower salary due to the basic cost of life.

 

[GRA]

shaky foundations in banking and employment i dont consider to be solely a European condition. we are in better condition only because we had farther to fall and a much larger government to bail us out. if we had been the size of Spain or Greece, we would be just as bad off as they are.

No argument, we started this particular mess back in 2008, and our government has proved so dysfunctional since that it's unlikely we'll solve it until we're forced to. My point was that the _effective_ difference in the price of gas is due to many factors, from the structure and taxing policies of our respective societies, country size and population densities, political/economic power, % of GDP devoted to military as opposed to other uses, and so on.

Europe is, however, demonstrating that the EU as currently set up has as weak and ineffective a governing mechanism as the U.S. had during the Articles of Confederation period, and for the same reasons.

 

[DANandNAN]

DANandNAN; you are "right" in that $8 gas will be a shock but only if it happens over night which will not happen, but it will happen. of that there is no doubt. we have probably 5-10 years (probably closer to 5) before it does so we do have time to prepare. over the recent past, gas prices has risen "about" a quarter a year.

That’s exactly what I was advocating. You can’t rush price increases because you will crush the economy and doing that now would be worse than the 70’s gas crisis. With my posts being gone it might seem that I disagree, but that’s exactly what I was saying. You just can't flip a switch.

I was PM’d by a mod to remove personal attacks. It was late, and rather than ask what I said that was a personal attack I just deleted my posts instead of questioning. I don’t believe I said anything that was a personal attack unless you consider telling someone that they don’t understand something as well as you do. Or, that someone is talking nonsense and swearing through the computer (which one poster did multiple times). I didn't call anyone out, didn't call anyone a name or curse, the "worst" thing I did was suggest that a poster sell his possessions and give everything away to charity so he can start helping - obviously I don't expect that to be taken as a serious suggestion, but is it an attack? I see their posts are still here which really makes me think I received the PM in error so through the magic of computers and the internet here’s my post.

Civilization didn't end in 1973, so thanks for bringing that up. People adjusted, found alternatives, and took steps to secure their future. Yeah, is sucked for a lot of people, but society as a whole survived. I would fully welcome a second, longer lasting and even self-imposed oil crisis NOW than wait another 10, 20, 30 years when it will be completely involuntary and do far more damage.

The transition has already started. It will take decades still. I think it can go faster - I think we can survive a little more pain for the sake of getting over the hump.

ROFL, "it sucked for a lot of people". Some people lost everything. Yes, everything because it happened too fast. You can't flip a switch and expect that America can handle $8+ gas it's going to suck for a lot of people. Again, some people lost everything and everyone was negatively affected.

You cannot just start raising prices - notice that I didn't say gas prices. Prices on everything will go up, just like they did then and just like they did when gas hit $6 last year. It's going to suck for some people? Yeah, job losses, homes lost, futures and fortunes lost does suck. But, it's all worth it to rush a transition - one that could be handled far more effectively without all the losses. "Civilization didn't end" - that's quite a statement of fact. It really shows that you have no idea how bad some people had it. Not everyone is a college kid and can survive on Ramen Noodles and their parents savings in the event of a crisis.

Tell ya what. Since you're such an advocate of letting people hurt, why don't you put your money where your mouth is and sell EVERYTHING you own. Your house (?), your Leaf (if you own it), and anything else of any value you or your family owns. Take EVERY bit of money you have and buy a bunch(?) of Leaf's for people you don't know. Give them the Leaf(s) and start making the world a better place and accept that it'll suck for you. Be the worst case scenario of what will happen - set an example - I'm sure others will follow.

But, you won't. You're not willing to take the medicine you're prescribing.

Whatever. You and KJD continue talking nonsense and swearing at your computers.

I think deleting it was wrong, I’d like to know what I posted that was an attack. I think I may have been PM’d about it in error. I understand that some folks don’t agree with me on the “plug-war” thread, but I’m not posting about it. I know KJD doesn’t like my signature, but I’m only explaining why we bought a Volt first and lets not forget Volt owners are attacked a lot because we own a Volt instead of a Leaf. The very next line in my signature says that we’re going to buy/lease a Leaf (or FFE) so obviously I’m a fan of the cars. Whatever, it’s the internet, I just take it as good natured ribbing and didn’t complain.

Anyway, I think everyone else pretty much agrees that we can’t handle an immediate rise in fuel prices and I’ll leave the discussion at that.

 

[EVDrive]

To stay on topic. Yes, I like QCing and look forward to QC stations everywhere along all the major highways and freeways. I like QCing because it makes going long distance in a relatively inexpensive EV convenient.

I would be leaving out the obvious if I forgot to mention that more QCing will mean more miles for all my Leaf and Imiev driving friends without burning poison gas and making poison smoke which ruins our air quality and gives people cancer.

 

[mrradon]

As an Engineer that teaches automotive electronics at WWU I would never ever use a QC charger.

I'd rather pamper my batteries to extend their useful life then hammer them with repeated quick charges.

But then again...if you're just leasing it who cares.