What is a true comparable car to the LEAF and Volt?

[LTLFTcomposite]

3) Reducing use of a scarce resource. The thing that scares me is the fact that countries like China and India are becoming more motorized and that's going to create a huge demand for some kind of fuel. My sense is that they will have to consider EVs before we will, but nonetheless, I'd rather keep our fossil fuel reserves for things better suited for fossil fuels and use electric for those other things we can. Again I suppose this is an environmental issue at heart too.

#3 is a biggie. It's like we're stranded on a desert island with a pallet of water bottles and a bunch of barrels full of rainwater... and people are using the water bottles for bathing!

 

[charlie1300]

personally, I comparison shopped with a similarly equipped Prius, which I recall came in at about $26 - $27k. So the TCO evened out at about 5 years. But as others have mentioned, that calculation was way down on the priority list.

Top of the list was wanting to stop sending my hard earned dollars to Petro-Dictators who would like to see me dead.

Sure, I want a cleaner environment, and hate being a pawn in the Oil companies and wall street speculators games, but that number one priority pretty much overshadows all the rest.

 

[aqn]

For the LEAF SL, I would say the MAZDA3 s Grand Touring 5-Door (automatic). When you add XM, Homelink, interior lighting, etc it's @ $25,900 with $795 destination. It does have leather and power sets however, which the LEAF doesn't. Also the MAZDA has a Bose stereo which is nicer than the LEAF SL. But really, when you compare the content the cars side by side, they are very similar.

Also: Power sliding-glass moonroof with one-touch-open feature and interior sunshade.

The Mazda does not have:

• Auto-dimming rear view mirror
• Remote climate control
• Climate control timers

 

[cwerdna]

Potential LEAF Comparisons
-Toyota Prius
-Honda Insight
-Honda Accord Crosstour
-VW Golf TDI 4-door
-Volvo V50
-Mini Countryman

Potential Volt Comparisons
-Cadillac CTS
-Audi A4
-Lexus IS

Probably the closest LEAF competitor is the VW Golf TDI 4-door with Tech package and automatic/DSG which comes out to $30,210 with destination.

By what criteria? Those are all over the map. Why is the above VW the closest to the Leaf?

The Volt competitors are also a stretch w/2 vehicles mostly coming in RWD and being marketedly different in terms of power, acceleration and "brand prestige" vs. the Volt...

Other than the two hybrids, the rest uselessly burn fuel while stopped and idling and have no regen.

The criteria here is based on a somewhat arbitrary assessment of driving feel, size similarity, and likeliness of cross-shopping customer. The Golf fits most because it's a diesel, so it will attract a technology/fuel economy focused buyers, it's roughly a similar body style and dimensions as the Leaf, and it's available with most of the same options.

Hmmm, for me, I don't at all think the VW Golf is anywhere near fitting the most. Despite the "clean diesel" greenwashing, it's dirty w/a lousy 6/10 on the EPA air pollution score and emits FAR more CO2 per given distance than a Prius (since diesel has higher carbon content). I normally wouldn't consider VWs (or Audis) since most have lackluster reliability. The Golf's also classified as a compact whereas the Prius is a midsized car, like the Leaf.

IMHO, Prius is closest and Insight is next, since they're hybrids, both are AT-PZEV certified in CARB states and have similar amounts of horsepower.

Volvo? Nothing from them interests me. The V50 got discontinued after MY 2011. Cadillac CTS has way more power is usually RWD and is a gas guzzler. Lexus IS is also usually RWD. Both of these can be had w/WAY more power.

Crosstour? UGLY! It's also 192-271 hp and a guzzler compared to the Prius and Insight. It's also classified as a SUV.

Mini Countryman has luckluster mileage (on premium) and is a compact.

Again, all the non-hybrids uselessly burn fuel while idling and have no regen.

 

[Devin]

Hmmm, for me, I don't at all think the VW Golf is anywhere near fitting the most. Despite the "clean diesel" greenwashing, it's dirty w/a lousy 6/10 on the EPA air pollution score and emits FAR more CO2 per given distance than a Prius (since diesel has higher carbon content). I normally wouldn't consider VWs (or Audis) since most have lackluster reliability. The Golf's also classified as a compact whereas the Prius is a midsized car, like the Leaf.

IMHO, Prius is closest and Insight is next, since they're hybrids, both are AT-PZEV certified in CARB states and have similar amounts of horsepower.

Volvo? Nothing from them interests me. The V50 got discontinued after MY 2011. Cadillac CTS has way more power is usually RWD and is a gas guzzler. Lexus IS is also usually RWD. Both of these can be had w/WAY more power.

Crosstour? UGLY! It's also 192-271 hp and a guzzler compared to the Prius and Insight. It's also classified as a SUV.

Mini Countryman has luckluster mileage (on premium) and is a compact.

Again, all the non-hybrids uselessly burn fuel while idling and have no regen.

The question here, though, is what regular ICE cars can, should, or will be directly compared to the Leaf and the Volt. Your criteria of burning fuel immediately rules out anything but other EVs, and that's not the point.

Greenwashing aside, the type of customer who would buy a Golf TDI more closely resembles the type of customer who would buy a Leaf. Both cars are roughly similar in terms of usefulness and someone interested in a VW TDI is likely more technically focused than your average Prius buyer. The Prius has become far too mainstream, and threatens to overtake the Camry for Toyota's most popular car. Most Prius buyers will determine they want a Prius because they've heard about it and their geeky friends have them so they must be good. A TDI buyer is more likely to look at the alternatives and not go the way the mainstream buying public will go so is also more likely to look at a Leaf (or a Civic GX etc).

Furthermore, if you don't think a Golf TDI is a valid comparison then just substitute it for a Jetta Sportwagen TDI - which is similarly priced but larger than a Golf and I believe slightly larger than a Leaf.

I think you've demonstrated quite well that comparisons with a Leaf or Volt are varied and depend on the individual's priorities and interests. You are not interested in performance or luxury, and place a strong value on environmental factors. I bet you that at least half of Volt and Leaf buyers do not rate environmental factors as their top reason for purchasing the vehicle. Environmental performance probably ranks 3rd or 4th on my list of reasons for purchasing the Leaf, and it has absolutely nothing to do with CO2 or global warming score. I am not a global warming denier but I am concerned much more with local air pollution than global warming pollution.

 

[redLEAF]

For the LEAF SL, I would say the MAZDA3 s Grand Touring 5-Door (automatic). When you add XM, Homelink, interior lighting, etc it's @ $25,900 with $795 destination. It does have leather and power sets however, which the LEAF doesn't. Also the MAZDA has a Bose stereo which is nicer than the LEAF SL. But really, when you compare the content the cars side by side, they are very similar.

Also: Power sliding-glass moonroof with one-touch-open feature and interior sunshade.

The Mazda does not have:

• Auto-dimming rear view mirror
• Remote climate control
• Climate control timers

Actually the 'auto-dimming' mirror is available as an add-on separate option which includes a compass and homelink for an extra $275 (we traded in an '06 Mazda3 5-door GT and would agree that the fully loaded 3 is something on the ICE side worth a comparison; especially now that it's getting the much more efficient SKYACTIV gas engine (perhaps with a diesel version at some time in the future). Copy from 'build your Mazda':

Compass auto-dimming mirror with HomeLink®

http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/sel...++IGT+A++&exteriorCode=41B&interiorCode=L_BU4

With many mfg's not giving up on squeezing more efficiency out of ICE's with new high tech engines we'll all have more choices but still no substitute for a 100% no emissions vehicle. Over in the U.K. they've made more likely comparison 'tests'; of course different models are available over there but the Golf TDI comes up more often than the Mazda3 does, probably due to the popularity and lower cost for diesel fuel over there.

 

[SanDust]

The question here, though, is what regular ICE cars can, should, or will be directly compared to the Leaf and the Volt.

I think you have the best list I've seen. Given that the vast difference in handling and performance between an ICE and an EV makes a direct comparison impossible, even if, as in the case of the Ford Focus, the body is the same, your list is good. As good as any.

My objection to your list, as good as it is, is that it's still using size or the platform and fuel economy. Since one of the great advantage of an EV is that it gives you a premium ride, assigning zero value to ride and handling automatically eliminates the EV's greatest advantages. Frank Weber of BMW has said that in order to get a ride as smooth and quiet as what you get in the Chevy Volt you have to have a car with a huge engine which is isolated from the rest of the car -- something you only find in super luxury vehicles. In his words, electric drive automatically provides benefits which engineers tried and failed to bring to ICE vehicles for the last fifty years. Given this, why compare the Volt to a Cruze when from a ride and handling point you could compare it to a Rolls Royce?

 

[aqn]

For the LEAF SL, I would say the MAZDA3 s Grand Touring 5-Door (automatic). When you add XM, Homelink, interior lighting, etc it's @ $25,900 with $795 destination. It does have leather and power sets however, which the LEAF doesn't. Also the MAZDA has a Bose stereo which is nicer than the LEAF SL. But really, when you compare the content the cars side by side, they are very similar.

Also: Power sliding-glass moonroof with one-touch-open feature and interior sunshade.

The Mazda does not have:

• Auto-dimming rear view mirror
• Remote climate control
• Climate control timers

Actually the 'auto-dimming' mirror is available as an add-on separate option ...

True 'nuf. I was only counting standard features, those that are included in a "base" model. That's why I didn't count the LEAF's back-up camera etc.

 

[IBELEAF]

Gas economy aside, you can compare feature by feature and there are plenty of similar sized budget cars that can match what Leaf has, but this comparison failed for me when it came to driving experience. Lack of engine noise, the sporty feel of Leaf just couldn't match any budget car out there. Also, whether you want it or not, when you buy a car you make statement, and with budget cars there is only one statement to be made, unlike with Leaf.

 

[TomT]

I guess the best answer for me is what I would have bought if I had not bought the Leaf: A Mini Clubman S six speed.

 

[GRA]

Hmmm, for me, I don't at all think the VW Golf is anywhere near fitting the most. Despite the "clean diesel" greenwashing, it's dirty w/a lousy 6/10 on the EPA air pollution score and emits FAR more CO2 per given distance than a Prius (since diesel has higher carbon content). I normally wouldn't consider VWs (or Audis) since most have lackluster reliability. The Golf's also classified as a compact whereas the Prius is a midsized car, like the Leaf.

IMHO, Prius is closest and Insight is next, since they're hybrids, both are AT-PZEV certified in CARB states and have similar amounts of horsepower.

Volvo? Nothing from them interests me. The V50 got discontinued after MY 2011. Cadillac CTS has way more power is usually RWD and is a gas guzzler. Lexus IS is also usually RWD. Both of these can be had w/WAY more power.

Crosstour? UGLY! It's also 192-271 hp and a guzzler compared to the Prius and Insight. It's also classified as a SUV.

Mini Countryman has luckluster mileage (on premium) and is a compact.

Again, all the non-hybrids uselessly burn fuel while idling and have no regen.

The question here, though, is what regular ICE cars can, should, or will be directly compared to the Leaf and the Volt. Your criteria of burning fuel immediately rules out anything but other EVs, and that's not the point.

Greenwashing aside, the type of customer who would buy a Golf TDI more closely resembles the type of customer who would buy a Leaf. Both cars are roughly similar in terms of usefulness and someone interested in a VW TDI is likely more technically focused than your average Prius buyer. The Prius has become far too mainstream, and threatens to overtake the Camry for Toyota's most popular car. Most Prius buyers will determine they want a Prius because they've heard about it and their geeky friends have them so they must be good. A TDI buyer is more likely to look at the alternatives and not go the way the mainstream buying public will go so is also more likely to look at a Leaf (or a Civic GX etc).

Furthermore, if you don't think a Golf TDI is a valid comparison then just substitute it for a Jetta Sportwagen TDI - which is similarly priced but larger than a Golf and I believe slightly larger than a Leaf.

I think you've demonstrated quite well that comparisons with a Leaf or Volt are varied and depend on the individual's priorities and interests. You are not interested in performance or luxury, and place a strong value on environmental factors. I bet you that at least half of Volt and Leaf buyers do not rate environmental factors as their top reason for purchasing the vehicle. Environmental performance probably ranks 3rd or 4th on my list of reasons for purchasing the Leaf, and it has absolutely nothing to do with CO2 or global warming score. I am not a global warming denier but I am concerned much more with local air pollution than global warming pollution.

Yeah, If I were in the market for a new car to replace my Forester now and wanted something with much improved fuel economy, I'd definitely be looking at the Jetta Sportwagen TDI, as no BEV I can afford has the range I need.

Aside from the Focus and again ignoring the body style, I think the Elantra might be in the right range as well, with an almost identical wheelbase as a Leaf. I want a higher level of performance (especially handling and driving feel) than a Prius provides, and prefer to drive a stick in any case. A BEV's quietness and smoothness is nice, but that doesn't outweigh for me the lack of flexibility/utility/spontaneity of the current limited range and lack of charging infrastructure. But I'm a single-car urban renter who only uses a car for out-of-town trips, so my needs are a poor match for current BEVs in any case.

 

[EVDrive]

Prius with Nav. Most people I know who have a leaf still have or had a Prius as well.

 

[TomT]

I personally know five people with Leafs - myself included - who have never owned a Prius...

For the most part, I previously commuted by motorcycle - a BMW that got about 60 mpg... I sold it about a year before I got the Leaf. I also sold the BMW 3 series car I had when I bought the Leaf, so technically the BMW car was replaced by the Leaf.

Most people I know who have a leaf still have or had a Prius as well.

 

[EVDrive]

I now know five people with Leafs, myself included. None has ever owned a Prius...

Most people I know who have a leaf still have or had a Prius as well.

I have a Leaf and a prius. Nice to meet you TomT. Now you know of 1 person.
Engineer has or had a prius. That makes 2 of your online blogging peers

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I now know five people with Leafs, myself included. None has ever owned a Prius...

Most people I know who have a leaf still have or had a Prius as well.

I have a Leaf and a prius. Nice to meet you TomT. Now you know of 1 person.
Engineer has or had a prius. That makes 2 of your online blogging peers

there are CURRENTLY dozens of Prius/Leaf households on this forum including myself

there is another poll that asked what car was traded for the Leaf, Prius ranked high there as well showing how many of us used to be a 2 Prius household (myself included)

 

[davewill]

A BMW?!?!? :lol: If I hadn't bought the LEAF, it would have been a Prius, and if not a Prius, it would have been a Corolla or some such. Sure, load the others up with Nav and whatnot to level things out more, but the LEAF is definitely no luxury car.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

If not a Leaf, a Prius or a Ford Fusion hybrid whichi consider 2nd best hybrid option

2013 fusion rated at 47 highway also coming out with extended range Ford Fusion Energi to go head to head with the Volt

 

[EricBayArea]

For what its worth (and I know its off topic), we have never owned a hybrid - the LEAF is our first vehicle that hasn't been 100% gasoline powered.

 

[Boomer23]

The LA Times article appeared today. Our forum was mentioned, though not by name.

Jerry writes that we think that the LEAF compares best with the Mazda3, Prius and Ford Focus. Apparently he couldn't bring himself to write that some of us find the EV driving experience to be superior to driving an ICE car that most would consider comparable, and that some of us came from BMWs before the LEAF.

http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-autos-ford-focus-20120426,0,7766653.story" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[thankyouOB]

what boomer said.
I wrote Jerry that all my previous cars were bmws, an audi, and various volvo t5s.

oh, i had a ford pickup and when starting out an original bug that belonged first to the wife.

i find the Leaf a good comparison to these, and I still have the audi. leaf got bluetooth and nav, and smooth ride, etc...blah blah blah.

let them buy gasoline. I laugh at it.