What is a true comparable car to the LEAF and Volt?

[PaulScott]

Jerry Hirsch, an auto writer for the LA Times, recently wrote an article on the payback times of the Volt and LEAF. http://lat.ms/GDoCmb" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As with many of these articles, he compared the LEAF to a Versa and the Volt to the Cruze. I wrote to him explaining that this is a false comparison since the Versa and Cruze were not even close to the plug-in versions in quality and functionality. He thought I made a good point and wanted to know what cars would compare. Since I've been driving an EV for over 9 years, I have no idea what ICE vehicles are true comparisons to the Volt and LEAF. Jerry wants to revisit this issue in a subsequent article, so he asked me to give him some ideas of vehicles that would legitimately compare to the plug-ins.

Do any of you have some good choices for me to give him?

 

[ENIAC]

For the LEAF SL, I would say the MAZDA3 s Grand Touring 5-Door (automatic). When you add XM, Homelink, interior lighting, etc it's @ $25,900 with $795 destination. It does have leather and power sets however, which the LEAF doesn't. Also the MAZDA has a Bose stereo which is nicer than the LEAF SL. But really, when you compare the content the cars side by side, they are very similar.

 

[Devin]

Potential LEAF Comparisons
-Toyota Prius
-Honda Insight
-Honda Accord Crosstour
-VW Golf TDI 4-door
-Volvo V50
-Mini Countryman

Potential Volt Comparisons
-Cadillac CTS
-Audi A4
-Lexus IS

Probably the closest LEAF competitor is the VW Golf TDI 4-door with Tech package and automatic/DSG which comes out to $30,210 with destination.

 

[GRA]

Jerry Hirsch, an auto writer for the LA Times, recently wrote an article on the payback times of the Volt and LEAF. http://lat.ms/GDoCmb" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As with many of these articles, he compared the LEAF to a Versa and the Volt to the Cruze. I wrote to him explaining that this is a false comparison since the Versa and Cruze were not even close to the plug-in versions in quality and functionality. He thought I made a good point and wanted to know what cars would compare. Since I've been driving an EV for over 9 years, I have no idea what ICE vehicles are true comparisons to the Volt and LEAF. Jerry wants to revisit this issue in a subsequent article, so he asked me to give him some ideas of vehicles that would legitimately compare to the plug-ins.

Do any of you have some good choices for me to give him?

why not the Versa 1.8 SL HB, with nav package?

 

[Boomer23]

This topic has interested me for a long time, Paul. It is difficult to answer, and in my opinion, depends on a lot of individual factors for various car buyers. Here are a few thoughts that I've had.

When we bought our Prius in 2007, it replaced a Volvo 740 wagon. My wife really liked Volvo wagons and the 740 was the second one we had owned. Had the Prius not been available, we would likely have been looking at another Volvo to replace the 740. We were both very interested in making a large leap forward in fuel economy, but her mind was pretty closed to a small car like the Prius, and she wanted to wait until a Volvo wagon was able to get 40 mpg or more. Well, five years later, she'd still be waiting, wouldn't she? When I got her to open her mind to a car that WAS available, the Prius, she realized that it was a very versatile and usable design and she fell in love with it.

At the time, news articles were abundant which said that Prius buyers would never recoup the money spent to pay for the hybrid power train when compared with something similar such as a Toyota Corolla. But we would NEVER have considered a Corolla. For us, the car that was competing with our Prius purchase was a Volvo, which would have cost about $10,000 more. So in the Prius, our particular family was getting a more satisfying car for many thousands LESS than our alternative car. And in the five years that we've owned the Prius, it has been pretty much as useful as a Volvo wagon would have been. We've even used it to carry cargo with the rear seats lowered, even including some large bookcases and disassembled office furniture.

Another example is our LEAF. For my own personal car, I've always tried to have an interesting, fun to drive car. I've had a succession of cars over the years, including a 1972 240Z, two Mazda RX7s, An Infiniti G35 and most recently, a BMW 328i coupe with sport and luxury packages and manual trans. The LEAF has been my personal fun car for the last 12 months, and it is every bit as engaging and fun to own as the other cars I've mentioned. If a fun EV wasn't available, I would have probably bought or leased a Mini Cooper S, a Mazda Miata or perhaps a used Porsche Boxster or Cayman. So in determining with which car to compare the LEAF for my particular situation, how do we choose? The LEAF replaced a highly optioned BMW coupe that cost over $40,000. The alternative new cars that I might have chosen would have cost at least $33,000. So with my LEAF costing about $35,000 before discounts and rebates (which totaled $13,500), it was in the same price range as my other options for a fun to drive, interesting personal car.

The LEAF, due to its quiet and smooth ride and its many electronic toys and displays, and because the torque of the electric motor really does make the acceleration rewarding, is as satisfying to own as my 2008 BMW. It isn't as fast or as good handling, but it is actually more interesting to own. By contrast, my Nissan dealer had allowed me to rent one of their loaner Versas for a few weeks before my LEAF arrived. I hated that Versa. It was underpowered and slow to the point of making me a very cautious driver who always waited to change lanes behind all other cars. What passed for amenities in the Versa felt like they belonged in a car that was 15 years older and the whole car felt like a penalty that I was being forced to drive because I had angered some powerful entity. So to compare the LEAF with the Versa is completely inappropriate. The point is that no LEAF owners that I know would cross-shop a Versa. They are all people who recognize that the EV driving and ownership experience is about fun and the rewards of driving and owning something truly new and ground breaking.

Now, to your question, how do we determine which ICE cars to compare with a Volt or a LEAF? The two EVs tend to be more satisfying and fun to own and drive than their specifications suggest. The classes of cars that come to mind for me are entry level luxury cars and sports sedans, something in the Infiniti G25 and the Lexus IS250 range. These cars are rewardlingly responsive but not truly quick. They have a good array of modern electronic amenities and they feel good to drive and give the owners a good feeling about their choices. Notice that there is nothing about an entry level economy car that evokes these feelings. Now try and tell the car buying public or the automotive press that they should compare a LEAF with a Lexus IS 250 and you won't get very far with many of them. For some buyers, the comparison car might be a Prius, for others a Volvo or a minivan. I know someone who drove a Nissan sport truck before the LEAF.

So to sum all of this up, reporters need to do the research to ask potential LEAF or Volt buyers which cars they are personally cross-shopping. I'd wager that the list will be long and varied, and it won't include a Cruze or a Versa, at least it won't in any large proportion.

 

[GRA]

<snip>

The LEAF, due to its quiet and smooth ride and its many electronic toys and displays, and because the torque of the electric motor really does make the acceleration rewarding, is as satisfying to own as my 2008 BMW. It isn't as fast or as good handling, but it is actually more interesting to own. By contrast, my Nissan dealer had allowed me to rent one of their loaner Versas for a few weeks before my LEAF arrived. I hated that Versa. It was underpowered and slow to the point of making me a very cautious driver who always waited to change lanes behind all other cars. What passed for amenities in the Versa felt like they belonged in a car that was 15 years older and the whole car felt like a penalty that I was being forced to drive because I had angered some powerful entity. So to compare the LEAF with the Versa is completely inappropriate. The point is that no LEAF owners that I know would cross-shop a Versa. They are all people who recognize that the EV driving and ownership experience is about fun and the rewards or driving and owning something truly new and ground breaking.

Do you happen to know if the Versa you drove had the 1.6 or 1.8L engine?

Now, to your question, how do we determine which ICE cars to compare with a Volt or a LEAF? The two EVs tend to be more satisfying and fun to own and drive than their specifications suggest. The classes of cars that come to mind for me are entry level luxury cars and sports sedans, something in the Infiniti G25 and the Lexus IS250 range. These cars are rewardlingly responsive but not truly quick. They have a good array of modern electronic amenities and they feel good to drive and give the owners a good feeling about their choices. Notice that there is nothing about an entry level economy car that evokes these feelings.

While that certainly used to be true, Consumer Reports and the various Car mags would disagree with you now. There are a lot of B-class cars that no longer conform to the 'penalty box' standard. the very lowest levels of equipment may still be there, but you can option these cars up to far better levels of performance, handling, equipment etc.

Now try and tell the car buying public or the automotive press that they should compare a LEAF with a Lexus IS 250 and you won't get very far with many of them. For some buyers, the comparison car might be a Prius, for others a Volvo or a minivan. I know someone who drove a Nissan sport truck before the LEAF.

So to sum all of this up, reporters need to do the research to ask potential LEAF or Volt buyers which cars they are personally cross-shopping. I'd wager that the list will be long and varied, and it won't include a Cruze or a Versa, at least it won't in any large proportion.

Sales of the Cruze and the Volt, as well as marketing surveys indicate that's not true in that case. Potential buyers are definitely cross-shopping the Cruze Eco (and the regular Cruze) and Volt.

 

[Devin]

So to sum all of this up, reporters need to do the research to ask potential LEAF or Volt buyers which cars they are personally cross-shopping. I'd wager that the list will be long and varied, and it won't include a Cruze or a Versa, at least it won't in any large proportion.

+1

My list above was me trying to shoe-horn the Leaf and Volt into comparisons I thought were most reasonably similar. But to be honest I'd never seriously consider any of them - except the Prius obviously. If there were no EVs available the vehicles I would honestly be looking at today would include the Range Rover Evoque, Mazda MX-5 Miata, Mazda RX-8, Volvo C30, Volvo XC60, Hyundai Genesis, Acura TSX Sport Wagon, and BMW 328i Wagon or Convertible. None of those cars are really directly comparable and yet that's what I'd be considering.

 

[Boomer23]

Do you happen to know if the Versa you drove had the 1.6 or 1.8L engine?

I assume it was the 1.6L , and it was probably a 2010 or 2009 model, so I acknowledge that current buyers who look at the Versa are looking at a different car than I was driving. However, I know that the current Versa is a built as a price leader, not a content leader, so I expect the driving experience to be minimally satisfying.

While that certainly used to be true, Consumer Reports and the various Car mags would disagree with you now. There are a lot of B-class cars that no longer conform to the 'penalty box' standard. the very lowest levels of equipment may still be there, but you can option these cars up to far better levels of performance, handling, equipment etc.

But will those well optioned B-class cars be as satisfying as your LEAF?

Sales of the Cruze and the Volt, as well as marketing surveys indicate that's not true in that case. Potential buyers are definitely cross-shopping the Cruze Eco (and the regular Cruze) and Volt.

Okay, apparently my gut feeling is off to a degree. I still maintain that many buyers have a varied list of comparison cars.

 

[Boomer23]

...The point is that no LEAF owners that I know would cross-shop a Versa. They are all people who recognize that the EV driving and ownership experience is about fun and the rewards of driving and owning something truly new and ground breaking.

...

It is important for us all to realize, however, that the LEAF owners that we know are all early adopters and people with very open minds. For EVs to become truly successful in the marketplace, the manufacturers really do have the challenge of attracting the average car buyer. Hence the question, how do they get these folks to experience an EV for the first time and to realize that one would fit into their lifestyles in the same way that our LEAFs have fit into the lives of everyone in the MNL community? At one Nissan sponsored event, a premier of "Revenge...", Tim Gallagher from Nissan asked us all to offer test drives to all of our friends and neighbors who are interested. I've been doing that somewhat, but I have yet to create a new LEAF owner. However, I have had that response from one or two readers of my blog, so clearly we are on the right track in talking and writing about our experiences with the LEAF.

 

[Herm]

Its hard to compare a Volt to a Cruze due to the different options available.. try a Buick Verano instead. Use http://www.truedelta.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; to compare options

 

[GRA]

Do you happen to know if the Versa you drove had the 1.6 or 1.8L engine?

I assume it was the 1.6L , and it was probably a 2010 or 2009 model, so I acknowledge that current buyers who look at the Versa are looking at a different car than I was driving. However, I know that the current Versa is a built as a price leader, not a content leader, so I expect the driving experience to be minimally satisfying.

The current version of the sedan is rated lower than the version it replaced, but the hatchback (still based on the previous generation) is rated better. I grant you that the Versa isn't an exciting car in any case, and I'd much rather drive a Fit, Mazda 2, Fiesta, Sonic or what have you. In fact, there's a nice article in either the current C&D or maybe Motor Trend comparing them.

While that certainly used to be true, Consumer Reports and the various Car mags would disagree with you now. There are a lot of B-class cars that no longer conform to the 'penalty box' standard. The very lowest levels of equipment may still be there, but you can option these cars up to far better levels of performance, handling, equipment etc.

But will those well optioned B-class cars be as satisfying as your LEAF?

Obviously that depends on what you're looking for. For my needs, yes, as I'm a single-car household who needs a car for trips and values performance/handling. A Leaf won't meet my needs. For someone who wants an urban/commute car an EV like the Leaf may suit them just fine.

 

[Boomer23]

Paul, I refer you to another current topic thread on this board. Many similar thoughts and opinions in response to a NYT article that would serve your reporter well to read before he writes:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8455" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[walterbays]

Based on vehicle size, power, and smooth driving experience I think a good comparison would be with the BMW 328i. Its price happens to be similar so people considering one car could as well buy another. The Volt and 328i are classed as "compact" while the Leaf is classed as "mid-size" but the Leaf is just 4 cu ft larger. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=32154&id=32175&id=31618

 

[garsh]

If you're trying to make an economic argument, which most of these stories are taking, then you want to compare the Leaf to some of the least-expensive, fuel-sipping vehicles available. The closest vehicle (excluding other plugins) is going to be a Prius, which will win that argument due to its excellent fuel economy and lower price tag. A Prius Three is probably most comparably equipped to a Leaf, with an MSRP of $26,325.

But as we see from the testimonials here, we're not all approaching it from that angle. Sure, we like lower energy costs. I personally really like the lack of moving parts and the lack of maintenance that implies. But some of us just like the idea of trying this new thing. We want a car that's somehow exciting. If the Leaf didn't exist, we might have gotten a sports car instead.

 

[LKK]

This is a very interesting topic as it is quite apparent to EV drivers that this type of comparison does not make sense. I think you have to appreciate the driving characteristics of an EV over that of an EV. An econobox ICE achieves economy through a small ICE and operating that ICE with little reserve power. That results in your typical "under powered" driving characteristics. In contrast, as we all know, the EV provides an abundance of torque with very little noise. I think the EV driving characteristics provide a premium feel much in the same way as high-end European cars feel with diesel engines (but with much less noise and vibration), and if you want a diesel, your going to have to pony-up the bucks.

I guess what I'm driving at is it is unfair to compare an EV with a similar sized ICE economy car even if that car is based on the same chassis because the EV drivetrain is a lot nicer, and therefore warrants a higher price. So comparisons of how many years it takes to breakeven between a Leaf and Versa or Volt and Cruze is not realistic because the EVs are much nicer cara. Why do people pay a premium for a BMW 3-Series over a similar sized Honda, Toyota or Mazda? Particularly when similarly powered? I think the answer is the premium feel, and as such, EVs should not be compared purely on economic basis with ICE based economy cars, but rather with ICE vehicles in the same price range.

 

[cwerdna]

Potential LEAF Comparisons
-Toyota Prius
-Honda Insight
-Honda Accord Crosstour
-VW Golf TDI 4-door
-Volvo V50
-Mini Countryman

Potential Volt Comparisons
-Cadillac CTS
-Audi A4
-Lexus IS

Probably the closest LEAF competitor is the VW Golf TDI 4-door with Tech package and automatic/DSG which comes out to $30,210 with destination.

By what criteria? Those are all over the map. Why is the above VW the closest to the Leaf?

The Volt competitors are also a stretch w/2 vehicles mostly coming in RWD and being marketedly different in terms of power, acceleration and "brand prestige" vs. the Volt...

Other than the two hybrids, the rest uselessly burn fuel while stopped and idling and have no regen.

 

[TRONZ]

Not to be too flip with the topic question but this is how I see it;

"What is a true comparable pet to a Cat or Dog?"

Well, if you respect and appreciate the unique purpose of each one then obviously another Cat or another Dog. If someone doesnt respect this then we have a much bigger problem... and might as well compare them to other pets like birds and fish.

An EV runs on electricity. End of comparison.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i would go top of the line Focus for the Leaf. the Focus is a bit smaller but the hatchback provides equal versatility. without actually looking at specs, the Focus is probably a bit tighter in the back so 3 would be a bit more of a challenge. but has great gas mileage. but then again. in WA, a Focus cherried out would be about $24,000 plus tax or about $26,200 or so verses a Leaf for $37,000 minus the EV tax credit puts it at $29,000 (no sales tax) Even with the Focus getting mid 30's in gas mileage. you would still save over $1000 a year in gas so looking at a "payback" of 3 years or less (probably less!)

there is no real comparison for the Volt. the Fusion is close, but bigger (add the hybrid option and its only slightly cheaper after the EV tax credit is applied.)

 

[thankyouOB]

just as with that NYT article. the case is just bogus.
as our friend above noted, a cat is not a dog. a horse is not a camel.
you picks your poison and takes the ups and downs. After a year, I have no regrets and still recommend it.
I got a deal with the rebate and CA credit, and I can drive in the HOV lane.
Why should I have to think whether I would buy it if I didnt have the HOV privilege?
To amuse some guy who doesnt have a Leaf and wants to prove a point?
NO thank you.

you dont buy the Leaf or the Volt to save money.
you dont buy an Audi or Cadillac to save money.
You buy them because they satisfy you and your needs.

are these EVs good and serviceable and do they make sense?
these are real functioning vehicles that have allot of money in batteries that other drivers spend on gasoline and maintenance.
pick your poison.
I dont forget I may have to buy another battery at some point, and for my ICE maybe need an engine job at some point.
there are range issues, but you never have to waste time at a gas station.

I dont feel the need to sell people on the EV experience, though I would prefer it spread sooner than later because I think it is good for our country and it is inevitable

 

[kubel]

To be fair, I would probably say the 2012 Focus SEL 5-door with equipment group 301A, Winter package, Navigation, and Remote Start would be the closest you can get to a 2012 LEAF SV. Granted, the Focus won't have a heated steering wheel, doesn't have heated rear seats, and remote start is hardly a comparison to what the LEAF can do, but the Focus does have superior quality overall and absolutely has better technology integration with SYNC, especially when it comes to navigation. MSRP is around $24,500.

But I don't think there's much of a comparison to the LEAF. There are, however, alternatives. Before I ordered my LEAF, I was test driving and getting quotes on various gas cars. On my list:

[Current Car] Ford Crown Victoria P71 - $5K, 17MPG
Ford Focus SE 5-door (sports package, winter package) - $17K, 30MPG
Ford Fiesta 4-door (base) - $13K, 33MPG
Ford Escape (AWD) - $22K, 20MPG
Suzuki SX4 Crossover (AWD, manual, tech trim) - $17K, 26MPG
Suzuki Grand Vitara (4x4, automatic, Limited trim) - $24K, 20MPG
Mazda 2 (base) - $15K, 32MPG
Honda Civic GX - $26K, 31MPGe
Honda Insight - $18K, 42MPG


Although none of the cars really offered me exactly what I wanted, I was actually just about to pull the trigger on one of the two Suzuki's when I started to seriously consider (and then ultimately fall in love with) the LEAF. I suppose in my case, my current car and the car I was considering are sort of gas guzzlers, so it's easy for me to make savings comparisons more favorable to the LEAF when the alternative is a car that only gets 17 or 20 MPG. When up against the Grand Vitara, the LEAF is a clear winner.