What do we say to those who believe EVs are killing planet?

[Deleted member 7875]

Every couple weeks, I get people saying gasoline is the most efficient feul or mining lithium for batteries is killing the planet. Are the right? Or is it just propoganda?

 

[Electric4Me]

I haven't heard too many stories lately about lithium spills...

No, they aren't right, but what you say will depend on if they're asking you, or telling you...

 

[planet4ever]

Perhaps you could start by agreeing that gasoline is far more efficient than electricity if your measure is how much energy can be contained in a pound of gasoline vs. a pound of batteries. But then you could point out that once the pound of gasoline is used it is gone, while the pound of batteries gets reused thousands of times. You could follow up by pointing out that a gasoline engine is about 25% efficient, while an electric motor is more than 90% efficient, so it takes far more energy to power a vehicle by gasoline than by electricity. And yes, the gasoline car is more "efficient" at killing the planet than the electric car in most cases. Only if the electricity comes purely from coal are they roughly comparable in that "goal". (In fact, less than half the electricity in the US is generated using coal, and that is also true of the electricity in the world.)

Mining lithium is killing the planet? Not hardly! There is more lithium in seawater that we could ever use for batteries, and Chile has a vast wasteland - a 4000 square mile salt flat - which is the world's richest potential source of lithium. Mining oil, on the other hand, is indeed killing the planet.

Ray

 

[cwerdna]

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.sierraclub.org/electric-vehicles/myths.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Publius]

That sounds similar to what people said about the Prius back when it was new. Ridiculous.

 

[mirko]

I ran into that with my boss. He said it was the batteries only lasting 2 - 3 years and filling up the landfills. This was my response...

Nissan says that they expect the battery to last over 10 years, however there is an expected capacity loss during that time. The Lithium-ion batteries are 70 to 100 Percent recyclable. There are already companies that are recycling the batteries. So you can’t say that the car is more harmful to the environment than gas powered vehicles. Remember that Gulf oil spill from the BP Deepwater Horizon? Exxon Valdez?

http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/battery" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Like all lithium ion batteries, the Nissan LEAF™ battery will experience gradual capacity loss over time. We expect the battery to last over 10 years, however, there may be a gradual loss of capacity of 30% or more depending on your driving patterns, and the effect on your battery. The battery can be used afterward for storage applications."


http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/what-happens-to-ev-and-hybrid-batteries.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Lithium-ion batteries now are somewhere between 70 and 100 percent recyclable, depending on the particular chemistry of the batteries. There are about half a dozen in use and more are being developed. The bits that can't be recycled are mostly consumed as fuel in the furnaces that are used to melt down the metals, which include cobalt, copper, iron, nickel, manganese and, someday, lithium.

http://www.kinsbursky.com/evbr.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Kinsbursky Brothers is committed to the future recycling of Electric and Hybrid Electric Vehicle (EV and HEV) batteries.

http://www.toxco.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In 1992 we introduced a unique patented process for the recycling of lithium primary batteries and we are still the only company in the World that can recycle any size or type of lithium battery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_spill" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Herm]

Every couple weeks, I get people saying gasoline is the most efficient feul or mining lithium for batteries is killing the planet. Are the right? Or is it just propoganda?

Just answer them: do you want to keep buying oil from the Arabs?

(or substitute Canadians, Nigerians, Oil Companies etc, depending on who they hate)

 

[Alric]

This is another good one. The full report is worthwhile too.

Nationwide, EVs charged from the electricity grid produce lower global warming emissions than the average compact gasoline-powered vehicle (with a fuel economy of 27 miles per gallon)—even when the electricity is produced primarily from coal in regions with the “dirtiest” electricity grids.

In regions with the “cleanest” electricity grids, EVs produce lower global warming emissions than even the most fuel-efficient hybrids.

EVs charged entirely from renewable sources like wind and solar power produce virtually no global warming emissions.

http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/smart-transportation-solutions/advanced-vehicle-technologies/electric-cars/emissions-and-charging-costs-electric-cars.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Deleted member 7875]

Thank you all. I feel much better armed for battle now. But I will of course try to keep things civil, and walk away from any know it all who won't change their mind no matter what I say.

 

[willk55]

I would tell them that we need all options right now. We are in a nasty cycle right now where as the world economy slows down oil costs drop. When things start to pick up, oil costs soar and slow the economy again.

 

[DarkStar]

I just tell them "Good luck recycling your used exhaust!"

 

[thankyouOB]

haters gotta hate.
folks who tell you that your EV battery is more of a polluter than their gasoline-using and exhaust-spewing machine are not rational.
you see some arguments above that refute their misconceptions. However, do not believe that being logical with these people will make them see the efficacy of dealing in a reasoned way with climate change, voter suppression, equal rights, second amendment or anything else.
they know what they know because they know it. or it is in the portions of the bible that they read and like.

 

[Reddy]

Since you're in Portland, you can show them that "most" of your electricity is green:
http://transmission.bpa.gov/Business/Operations/Wind/baltwg3.aspx
http://transmission.bpa.gov/Business/Operations/Wind/WIND_InstalledCapacity_PLOT.pdf
Heck, we send more hydo and wind power out of the area than we can consume. Drive more EVs! Especially from May to July!

 

[timhebb]

It is a low-information world, even more so when it comes to paradigm-shifting, emerging technologies.

We are all learning; some are just further - much further - behind on the learning curve. The next 10 years will help bring them up to speed on this issue, with no effort wasted on your part.

 

[cwerdna]

That sounds similar to what people said about the Prius back when it was new. Ridiculous.

The total BS/FUD about hybrids is STILL going on, despite the Prius having gone on sale in the US over 12 years ago. :roll: You'll see it on other car message boards and on comments to articles relating to hybrids.

 

[Herm]

However, do not believe that being logical with these people will make them see the efficacy of dealing in a reasoned way with climate change, voter suppression, equal rights, second amendment or anything else. they know what they know because they know it. or it is in the portions of the bible that they read and like.

Sheez, you forgot homophobia, racists and flat earth society members

 

[thankyouOB]

However, do not believe that being logical with these people will make them see the efficacy of dealing in a reasoned way with climate change, voter suppression, equal rights, second amendment or anything else. they know what they know because they know it. or it is in the portions of the bible that they read and like.

Sheez, you forgot homophobia, racists and flat earth society members

homophics are covered under equal rights, right along with the racists. or did you miss that?

 

[Phoenix]

The LEAF's batteries at 70% seem highly reuseable/recyclable. But what about the Tesla's smaller lithium ion batteries? Are they reuseable (for example, as stationary storage batteries) or are they only recyclable for their materials content?

 

[ERG4ALL]

One other tidbit is that you ask when he last got a battery for his car, did he have to turn in the old lead-acid battery and/or pay a recycling fee if he didn't? As it turns out 94% of American lead-acid batteries are recycled because of this. If he'd like to look on the periodic table of elements he would find that Lead (Pb) is an element. That means that it cannot be split any lower. It can be combined with things to make it into other molecules, but at the atomic (i.e. atom) level it is as simple as it gets. Then show the person that Lithium (Li) is also an element with much the same ability as lead for recycling.

As a side issue you might mention that we are greatly concerned with lead in our atmosphere. That is precisely why lead based paints have been banned and why we now have only unleaded gas for the ICEs. Thus, lead-acid battery manufacturing and the mining of lead has its drawbacks as well.

 

[Smidge204]

You can casually mention that every gallon of gasoline they put into their ICEv required an additional quart of gasoline (equivalent) to suck out of the ground, refine and deliver.

Then remind them that although their ICEv might be able to travel 350-someodd miles between fillups, they are carrying roughly four times as much energy along for the ride than would be necessary in an EV.

Be sure to ask them how they're defining "efficiency" too.
=Smidge=