Value of 2013 Leaf SL?

[alozzy]

So many people are emotional car buyers, even with ICE cars - they don't care to learn the nuances of cars models they are interested in, nor do they care to learn how to objectively evaluate a car's condition.

Those types become better car buyers by getting burned by bad purchases, often repeatedly. So, I expect many people who purchase older LEAFs and other used EVs over the next few years will have no clue about battery condition concerns and will jump right in to buy "mint" condition LEAFs with bad packs.

On the flip side, they'll also ignore higher mileage LEAFs or those that look less pretty, even if they have excellent condition packs. I hope to take advantage of that bias again, when I look for a higher mileage 2018 SV that most people will pass over.

It seems that people who frequent these forums are the more methodical, objective car buyer types (myself included). Lots of engineers and IT people, I suspect

EVs are on the cusp of main stream, so newbie buyers aren't really knowledgeable early adopters anymore.

 

[cwerdna]

For reference, if anyone's curious, https://sfbay.craigslist.org/d/cars-trucks/search/cta?sort=priceasc&auto_make_model=nissan%20leaf&max_auto_year=2013&min_auto_year=2013 are SF Bay Area + somewhat further area results for '13 Leaf.

Have you tried Carmax, Cwerdna?

Two years ago, yes. May try again this weekend but the fact that I saw they had no Leafs older than '15 on sale may not be a great sign.

So many people are emotional car buyers, even with ICE cars - they don't care to learn the nuances of cars models they are interested in, nor do they care to learn how to objectively evaluate a car's condition.

Those types become better car buyers by getting burned by bad purchases, often repeatedly. So, I expect many people who purchase older LEAFs and other used EVs over the next few years will have no clue about battery condition concerns and will jump right in to buy "mint" condition LEAFs with bad packs.

On the flip side, they'll also ignore higher mileage LEAFs or those that look less pretty, even if they have excellent condition packs.

The bolded part is the disturbing trend I've seen over the years. People will pop into Leaf FB groups having bought a Leaf many bars down, not having done their research, often model year '12 or earlier or built before 4/2013 then complaining about its short range, the GOM (why does it drop so much, why it only charges up to nn miles, etc.) But, they can't return the car, people have to give them the bad news about how much it costs for a replacement battery, etc.

They also have no idea about Leafs being reset and it seems some are reset victims, like this one guy who recently was complaining on one group (the admins for some reason deleted one of his threads, taking out my replies + others). His '13 "8 bar" car dropped to 4 capacity bars within a few months. He was way past his capacity warranty, keeps trying to say it's defective should be covered under the battery defects warranty (people have to explain over and over and it apparently expired, it seems) and yet he kept griping about Nissan. It seems he bought from some shady reseller.

 

[user 10599]

Thanks for the great replies. I think I will look into the Carvana approach. I'm expecting really low offers from VW and Nissan. Cwerdna's '13 SV with more miles suggests my '13 SL will get a better offer. That is at least in the ballpark of the KBB/Edmund's numbers.

Last time I sold to Carmax, I got well below KBB, but was still better than the other offers I was getting - hence my initial distrust of the KBB numbers. Neat to see confirmation that the Carvana offer has gone up significantly over the last 6 months. I'm still 1 - 3 weeks out from my ID.4 delivery, so will have to wait to request their quote.

On private sale side, I'm thinking once I get a decent Carvana offer, using their "offer good" period to stick a sign in it and see if any of the neighbors want it for close to the estimated private party price. I figure it is a long shot, but this small amount of effort could yield $1,500 or so.

 

[cwerdna]

Yeah, OP's car having CHAdeMO is a big advantage due to the perceived/want need, besides it having leather and LED headlights. The halogen headlights on gen 1 Leaf are crap vs. the the stock LEDs. My leased '13 Leaf had the LED headlights.

 

[SageBrush]

And +1 on the used Leaf market being 'inefficient'. It takes a while to learn what you need to know about EV's and while it's easy for us who drive them to 'get it' I think it's much harder for someone who has never owned an EV to understand what makes a difference.

Carvana does not ask about battery capacity when it makes a buy offer. I'm not too surprised by individuals new to EVs being unaware of battery degradation but Carvana surprised me.

 

[user 10599]

Dang, the Carvana offers don't consider battery condition? That is mind boggling. I would have thought the 11 bars contributed to the offer being more in line with the KBB numbers.

 

[cwerdna]

Dang, the Carvana offers don't consider battery condition? That is mind boggling. I would have thought the 11 bars contributed to the offer being more in line with the KBB numbers.

At the places where I've gotten quotes online (what I listed in my recent post), they don't ask at all about battery condition. It's probably great for someone w/a heavily degraded battery but low odometer mileage.

I don't know of KBB or Edmunds asking either but I'm not sure I'd place that much value in their Leaf estimates anyway.

 

[user 10599]

Neither KBB nor Edmunds had a spot to enter battery condition so I don't see how they evaluate that except to use mileage as a proxy.

Once I get the offers from VW, Nissan and Carvana, I will post the results.

 

[cwerdna]

Neither KBB nor Edmunds had a spot to enter battery condition so I don't see how they evaluate that except to use mileage as a proxy.

Indeed... which isn't a proxy at all.

https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=473995#p473995 has the same build month as me except he's in blazing hot Phoenix. I'm still at 11 bars and will probably be at 10 soon. Then again, I lost my 1st bar in Nov 2017. I'm in a hotter part of the Bay Area, but not the hottest.

https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=31297 (which turned out to have a crap chemistry) lives in a super mild climate always was charging to 100% and at under 52K miles with a '13 is a 6 bar loser. I found another '13 6 bar loser at 60K miles at https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=604833#p604833, also w/a crap chemistry.

I found this 9 bar '13 SL with premium at https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?listingId=579475734 with 70K miles which the guy is trying to sell for $5500. It's in Sacramento, which is quite hot (9 bars is no surprise) and over 130 miles away from me. Looks like it was built 11/2013 per the Autocheck link but may have sat unsold for 8 months. I wonder if it'll sell at that price and how long it'll take.

 

[cwerdna]

Thanks for the great replies. I think I will look into the Carvana approach. I'm expecting really low offers from VW and Nissan. Cwerdna's '13 SV with more miles suggests my '13 SL will get a better offer. That is at least in the ballpark of the KBB/Edmund's numbers.

Last time I sold to Carmax, I got well below KBB, but was still better than the other offers I was getting - hence my initial distrust of the KBB numbers. Neat to see confirmation that the Carvana offer has gone up significantly over the last 6 months. I'm still 1 - 3 weeks out from my ID.4 delivery, so will have to wait to request their quote.

On private sale side, I'm thinking once I get a decent Carvana offer, using their "offer good" period to stick a sign in it and see if any of the neighbors want it for close to the estimated private party price. I figure it is a long shot, but this small amount of effort could yield $1,500 or so.

Ok. So, Carmax offered me only $3500 this time vs. $5000 2 years ago.

They don't test drive this time (due to COVID) unless you like the offer, which I didn't. I got to watch the person inspect the car. They didn't even open the charging door to see if it had CHAdeMO or not. But, like last time, they thought it had quick charge port (it doesn't). On my new printout, it says under "features considered" that lists out everything else correctly, they said "quick charge package".

They got the trim level right. They claimed passenger fender was not original and passenger front door had prior paintwork. I recall a previous assessment from them said (IIRC) one of the doors wasn't original. I never got into an accident but it's possible the previous driver did and it wasn't on Carfax/Autocheck.

Anyway, Carmax seems like a place to dump low mileage many bar losers, since it doesn't seem like they factor in capacity.

Will be re-examining Carvana again. If the numbers are close to what they offered me of $5140, I might go with that as it would be less hassle.

Craigslist and FB marketplace (I advertised for $5900) have been all over the place in responses w/an offer as low as $3K, saying that's all they got. Some just want to look and the highest I've seen is $5500 but they haven't come seen the car and of course, can lower it.

update: I had to go thru Carvana data entry again since I hadn't created an account at the time of previous appraisals. Now, based on how I answered, it's offering me $5149. I've created an account and am going thru the rest of the process now (e.g. uploading odo pic, copy of title, photo id, etc.). This is what I'm going to do unless it falls thru or they somehow lowball me when they arrive.

They didn't ask about battery capacity bars. I didn't know how to answer for "premium wheels" so I left it unchecked. Mine are what come w/SV and aren't the steel wheels w/platsic hubcaps that come on S trim.

Since they didn't ask about the rear cargo cover that I have (doesn't come w/SV trims), I will remove it before sale and try to sell that on my own.

After completing the document uploads and answering additional questions, it says an "advocate" will review them an contact me in 1-2 days. The appraisal email said "Your offer is good for 7 days, through Sunday, June 6, 2021. We’re ready when you are." Oddly, Carvana's web site says it's good thru June 29 (!?!?).

Their site is a bit buggy, I hit problems at account creation and numerous errors (forcing me to re-sign in) while upload docs. At this point, since they have an odometer pic, I'm going to not put any more miles on my Leaf.

For their offer, their site says:

What’s behind your offer

We combine what you told us about your Nissan LEAF with data from service history records, trusted pricing guides, and our own market analysis. Hundreds of data points are analyzed to create a firm offer, just for you.

Your Carvana offer is higher than the KBB Trade-in value
No accidents
Clean title
Low mileage
Adjusted for your area
Some exterior damage
Some interior damage
No mechanical issues
Premium options
2+ keys
No smoking in car

and "We use data from CarFax, KBB, and AutoCheck to create your offer."

Hope my info helps the OP.

 

[LeftieBiker]

I'm sorry this has been such a hassle for you. I remember trying to sell my one owner '86 Civic Si on CL, on Ebay, and with local flyers. It was a total nightmare, and I got less than I wanted in the end, after a year or two. If you do want to give it one more try, I suggest targeted marketing: write an ad that sells the car to those looking for a reliable second car for in-city trips, to teach kids to drive, and another ad as a perfect car for a retiree. Post the first one in supermarkets, and the second at Senior housing complexes with charging stations. Don't even try for commuters, even though it would be great for a certain subset of those. The best bet is to find a retiree who just wants reliable, quiet, Green transportation with very little maintenance. All of the few questions I've been asked about my Leaf have come from seniors.

 

[jjeff]

Funny thing is I've been hearing a lot about how the cost of used cars have went through the roof, with more people wanting to drive, the cost of new cars and the fact that some of the new car factories were shut down during the pandemic and are just getting going.....
Truthfully I think it's a bit of a story as I haven't really seen used car prices go up that much, for sure newer lease return cars like the Ionic PHEV my daughter is looking for. I may be seeing the price of older 7-8 year old cars increase as it seems like used Volts have went up quite a bit from the last time I looked, but I have no hard facts on this, just a gut feeling as I used to see older '12 and '13's close $5-6k and now it's not uncommon to see them closer to $10k and '18s around $27k and of course being used you don't get any federal tax break. It's kind of odd cwerdna is actually getting offered less for his Leaf, if indeed the dealers are charging more for used cars.....

 

[SageBrush]

It's kind of odd

Higher used car prices does not mean **all** used cars

 

[cwerdna]

Funny thing is I've been hearing a lot about how the cost of used cars have went through the roof,
...
just a gut feeling as I used to see older '12 and '13's close $5-6k and now it's not uncommon to see them closer to $10k and '18s around $27k and of course being used you don't get any federal tax break. It's kind of odd cwerdna is actually getting offered less for his Leaf, if indeed the dealers are charging more for used cars.....

For reference, here are '13 Leaf used asking prices in the SF Bay Area on CL: https://sfbay.craigslist.org/d/cars-trucks/search/cta?auto_make_model=nissan%20leaf&max_auto_year=2013&min_auto_year=2013. The highest ones are all dealers, not private party and all are below $7K.

'18 Leafs used for $27K?!?#? That's fricking nuts. Some dude on Leaf group was asking about an '18 Leaf (I think SL) for $20K and everyone is telling him that's overpriced considering the price of new and used Bolts which have way more range. That said, used Bolts have actually gone up at https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searchresults.action/?mdId=36274172&mkId=20053&page=1&perPage=100&rd=99999&searchSource=PAGINATION&sort=price-lowest&stkTypId=28881&zc=00001. They used to be a few $K less.

Some person on a Bolt group mentioned the other day he picked up a new '21 Bolt LT w/DC FC (but not much else) for $20K before tax, title and fees at a dealer in the Long Beach, CA.

 

[NorCalLeafOwner]

I don't have a dog in this fight--just thought my recent experience might be interesting.

We took our 2015 SL in to the local dealer for a routine inspection. About a week later, we got a call from the dealer asking if we wanted to sell it. The guy said that there was a shortage of used Leafs in NorCal and they were contacting used Leaf owners to see if they wanted to sell.

I don't know what that means, just reporting my experience.

 

[LeftieBiker]

The fact that I was able to sell my '18SL, instead of just turning it in, indicates that some categories of used cars are going for much more. I think it's a case of supply & demand, with late model cars worth more, and older cars not so much.

 

[NorCalLeafOwner]

I'm sorry this has been such a hassle for you. I remember trying to sell my one owner '86 Civic Si on CL, on Ebay, and with local flyers. It was a total nightmare, and I got less than I wanted in the end, after a year or two. If you do want to give it one more try, I suggest targeted marketing: write an ad that sells the car to those looking for a reliable second car for in-city trips, to teach kids to drive, and another ad as a perfect car for a retiree. Post the first one in supermarkets, and the second at Senior housing complexes with charging stations. Don't even try for commuters, even though it would be great for a certain subset of those. The best bet is to find a retiree who just wants reliable, quiet, Green transportation with very little maintenance. All of the few questions I've been asked about my Leaf have come from seniors.

I think you are right about the seniors. I was shopping at our local super market and an older guy (well, older than me and I'm not young) came up to me and asked if I had just driven a Leaf into the parking lot. To be honest, I started to get defensive because I thought he was getting ready to confront me about driving an EV (it's happened before). But instead he said that he had just bought one too (a 2018) and he asked me how I liked mine. So we had a friendly chat, but I would guess he was at least 75 -80 years old.

 

[user 10599]

After completing the document uploads and answering additional questions, it says an "advocate" will review them an contact me in 1-2 days. The appraisal email said "Your offer is good for 7 days, through Sunday, June 6, 2021. We’re ready when you are." Oddly, Carvana's web site says it's good thru June 29 (!?!?).

Please let me know if this is a success. If my VW comes next week as expected, I will be starting my effort with them about the time you are completing your sale.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
Will do. Hope they show up w/a flatbed truck, payment and it's done once the paperwork is done.

The fact that I was able to sell my '18SL, instead of just turning it in, indicates that some categories of used cars are going for much more. I think it's a case of supply & demand, with late model cars worth more, and older cars not so much.

Indeed. That said, given how low new US Leaf sales are, I'd infer there isn't that much demand for Leafs, in general, which might be why Carmax, Vroom and Shift were so low. Anytime these places (Carvana included) takes a chance in paying for a used car, they might have a tough time selling it unless it's priced super cheap.

Maybe some of these resellers can make some profit by moving some of their Leafs to areas where they can command higher prices, possibly even outside the US. It's still a risk as shipping isn't free.

update from 5/31: Received a text and an email from Carvana about them moving to the next step of scheduling an appointment. I went to the web site and selected how I'd like to receive payment (e.g. ACH, debit card something or printed check).

They then let me select drop off or pick up. The hilarious part is the only drop off point given to me was all the way in Westminster, CA (92683 zip code) which they say is 333 miles from home. It's actually over 360 miles away. No thanks. One of the "advantages" of dropping off they tout is a "free ride home" (I believe they use Uber). LOL!

I selected pick up and the earliest pickup date they have is June 7. They fortunately have evening slots and the latest is 8 pm. I chose June 8th and 7 pm. Their email says:

One of our Customer Advocates may arrive in a Carvana-branded hauler or an Uber (they will be decked out head-to-toe in Carvana gear) to perform a final inspection on the vehicle, walk you through all necessary contracts and hand you a business check or process an electronic transfer of $5,149.00.

 

[user 10599]

^^^
Will do. Hope they show up w/a flatbed truck, payment and it's done once the paperwork is done.

Did you complete the sale? How'd it go?