Vacaville L3 Chargepoint

[darelldd]

Charging standards.

Here is how I understand the un-understandable. This is according to Gary Kissel - chairman of the SAE committee. And little of this is apparently written in stone as there are never-ending standards wars going on in the background. Calling most of this controversial is putting it mildly.

Here are the definitions that seem to be settled:
AC Level 1 Charging
- 120V AC charging from standard 15 or 20 amp NEMA outlet, on-board vehicle charger
- 12 and 16A current configuration (1.44 and 1.92kw)
AC Level 2 Charging
- 208 – 240 AC charging up to 80 amps, on-board vehicle charger (Up to 19.2kw)
DC Quick Charging (pretty wide open for a "standard")
- Off-board charger connects directly to vehicle high voltage battery bus
- Charger controlled by vehicle which allows for extremely high power transfer (>100kw)
- Actual charge rate limited by battery chemistry, infrastructure and other factors


And then a bunch that is not settled:

AC L3: TBD (single or three phase?)
DC L1: 200-450V DC (up to 80A and 19.2kW)
DC L2: 200-450V DC (up to 200A and 90kW)
DC L3: TBD (200-600V DC? Up to 400A? Up to 240kW?)

Note that what we call "L1 and L2" today are of course AC L1 and AC L2 officially. If we end up with DC level standards, you can see how the confusion will just become compounded. And you can see how calling anything L3 today will just confuse the issue when we have both AC and DC L3 standards eventually.

It would appear that the Tesla Model S is going to throw yet another wrench into the works with their own fast-charge configuration (like they had to do with the Roadster). One of the problems with being ahead of the curve!

 

[derkraut]

Then, be careful to not confuse GM (new) with GM (old),
or J1772 (old) with J1772 (new),
or Savings Bonds with War Bonds.

Or, one "Gary" with another "Gary"! :lol:

Hey Gary......you're a pretty funny Gary!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[darelldd]

But L3 is so much easier to say. I think we just need to accept the fact that people will use the terms interchangeably...

I agree! And people do and they will... but the terms mean different things, of course. I don't mean to be the terminology Nazi... just pointing out the current reality. I'm the first to admit that the terminology is VERY hard to keep up with! Most folks think that L2 means a very narrow band of charge current. Nope!

You two both seem to be writing as if there really is something called L3, but that quick charge using CHAdeMO isn't it.

As I've shown above - the L3 label does exist, they just haven't agreed on a definition for it. And we'll have to distinguish between AC and DC L3

I had a different impression. I thought the L1/L2/L3 terms originated with the J1772 standards task force, but that they abandoned the L3 term. There is now DC charging (at whatever voltage the battery needs), and AC charging, where AC charging is broken down as L1 = 120v and L2 = 208v-240v.

Both AC and DC will be broken down into three levels... if we can ever agree on what those should be.

Presumably some day L3 charging might be defined as some higher AC voltage, but that hasn't even been proposed yet.

Oh it has been proposed! Many times, in many different forms. Just not agreed upon.

I'm not an expert on this. Would someone like to chime in on how far off-base I might be?

Not far at all! And please note that I'm no expert either.

 

[LEAFer]

"I haven't heard if you can effectively "top off" with Level 2 charging immediately following the use of the EV Quick Charger."
At the dedicaction event we talked about this specifically. After the Fast charge terminates, you can immediately top off with L2 charging with the press of one button.

Which button would that be ? I thought Vacaville does not yet have L2 ? Or are you refering to keeping it plugged in an continuing to charge using DC, but at a lower current. Sorry, I am a little confused. (Or is it because iMiev is different?)

Ah yes. Terminology messing us up again.

So first the button. As there are just two buttons from which to choose, I'd choose the "start." After the quick charge is over, the next press of start begins a lower current charge - similar to the level of L2 (~6.6kw), but still coming from the DC charger. The car can be topped up to 100% in this fashion. It can NOT be charged to full at the quick charge rate.

Sorry. All confusion was in my use of "L2" when I should have just said 6.6kW charge level. Does this clear it iup?

Yes, that helps (thought it might be a button in the car). Thanks. Nice to know the car (apparently) automatically controls the DC station to reduce to a lower level. Since AC L2 for LEAF is limited to 3.3kW, do you know that the reduced DC L2 level is in fact 6.6kW ? That would imply approx. (24kWh*20%/6.6kW)=.72hrs or 43 minutes (plus some time for less kW near 100% SOC).

 

[darelldd]

do you know that the reduced DC L2 level is in fact 6.6kW ? That would imply approx. (24kWh*20%/6.6kW)=.72hrs or 43 minutes (plus some time for less kW near 100% SOC).

I can't say for sure, but recall that it was ~6kW. It is totally independent of the onboard charger, so the 3.3kW allowed (limited?) by the L2 inlet has no bearing on this charge rate.

 

[garygid]

6.6 kW -> 7.2 hours, not 0.72, right?

 

[LEAFer]

6.6 kW -> 7.2 hours, not 0.72, right?

No ... because I am assuming on doing a 20% charge from 80% to 100% at 6.6kW.

 

[darelldd]

6.6 kW -> 7.2 hours, not 0.72, right?

No ... because I am assuming on doing a 20% charge from 80% to 100% at 6.6kW.

Correct!

 

[GeekEV]

And then a bunch that is not settled:

AC L3: TBD (single or three phase?)
DC L1: 200-450V DC (up to 80A and 19.2kW)
DC L2: 200-450V DC (up to 200A and 90kW)
DC L3: TBD (200-600V DC? Up to 400A? Up to 240kW?)

Ok, you've sold me. I won't use L3 to refer to DC Quick Charge anymore...

 

[DarkStar]

Yes, that helps (thought it might be a button in the car). Thanks. Nice to know the car (apparently) automatically controls the DC station to reduce to a lower level. Since AC L2 for LEAF is limited to 3.3kW, do you know that the reduced DC L2 level is in fact 6.6kW ? That would imply approx. (24kWh*20%/6.6kW)=.72hrs or 43 minutes (plus some time for less kW near 100% SOC).

Okay, starting from 0% SOC, you'll get to 80% in about 25 minutes. Since the LEAF is programmed to stop charging at that point, it will. When you press Start again, it will go from 80% to 100% in an additional 20-25 minutes. I'll let you do the math from there...

 

[LEAFer]

... it will go from 80% to 100% in an additional 20-25 minutes.

How do you know this ?

 

[DarkStar]

... it will go from 80% to 100% in an additional 20-25 minutes.

How do you know this ?

When the DC Quick Charger was installed in Portland, I watched a LEAF charge from 80-100% and checked my clock.

I guess things could have changed since then...

 

[LEAFer]

... it will go from 80% to 100% in an additional 20-25 minutes.

How do you know this ?

When the DC Quick Charger was installed in Portland, I watched a LEAF charge from 80-100% and checked my clock.

I guess things could have changed since then...

Thanks ... so it's a "real-world" data point. But (not to be too picky ... ) did it arrive at 80% to get charged, or had it just charged (and auto-stopped) at 80% on DCQ ? Any photos of the station's display ?

 

[DarkStar]

But (not to be too picky ... ) did it arrive at 80% to get charged, or had it just charged (and auto-stopped) at 80% on DCQ ? Any photos of the station's display ?

It started out around 5-10% SOC if I remember correctly...

Somebody posted some pictures of the screen specifically, but here is the Engadget article on the announcement (with a video):

http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/06/north-americas-first-public-use-quick-charge-station-opens-in-p/

I'll edit the post if I find the pictures...

 

[Deleted member 1622]

There is the entire private sector that will install charge stations to drive business, it's not going to take ten years.

I hope you're right, but until there are a few hundred thousand EVs on the road, I don't see why a business would spend $20,000-$50,000 on a DC charger, or even the $1500-$3000 (plus electrical upgrades) needed for an L2 charger. As a Leaf driver, I would only be attracted to a business with a DC Quick charger. At most I spend an hour or two shopping, and that 1-2 hours on an L2 charger translates to another few highway miles in the car. Not really enough to make me shop one place vs. another. A DC charger, of course, is another story, because it would allow you to drive to someplace further away from your house... but then there's a new kind of anxiety to have besides range anxiety: "Oops-the-DC-charger's-down-and-I-can't-get-home" anxiety.
Josh

 

[darelldd]

There is the entire private sector that will install charge stations to drive business, it's not going to take ten years.

I hope you're right, but until there are a few hundred thousand EVs on the road, I don't see why a business would spend $20,000-$50,000 on a DC charger, or even the $1500-$3000 (plus electrical upgrades) needed for an L2 charger.

Hundreds of them already have done this, and every one of them has realized a profit from doing so.

As a Leaf driver, I would only be attracted to a business with a DC Quick charger. At most I spend an hour or two shopping, and that 1-2 hours on an L2 charger translates to another few highway miles in the car.

As an *initial Leaf driver saddled with 3.3kW charging maybe. As any other EV driver, you get about 40 miles of charge in two yours. That's nothing to sneeze at. At today's CA prices, that's what? $10 worth of gasoline?

 

[ht2]

For the record, I have NEVER experienced this charger to be out of service. Every time I've visited, it has been ready and willing to go. I'm not sure what others are experiencing, of course.

Ed Heustis and I heard the same things from the same people, and came to different conclusions. This charge station is public. It is available for anybody to use at a public park and ride. It is powered, unlocked and ready for action. One of the reasons this "demonstration" charger was installed here is to gage "user acceptance." Can't do that without users!

Since they are gaging user acceptance. If you live near Vacaville, please use the charge station as much as possible to sow we need this station.
This and coming 30 DC Charge stations intalled by ECOtality. I hope Chademo become de facto L3 DC quick charging method of SF bay area.
http://www.ecotality.com/newsletter/20110202_BAAQMD.html

 

[darelldd]

Since they are gaging user acceptance. If you live near Vacaville, please use the charge station as much as possible to show we need this station.

I'd love to. And I *would,* save for the fact that I don't own a car that can take advantage of it.

 

[rawhog]

.

 

[darelldd]

Well I live in Vacaville, about 2 miles from this QC. I intend to take advantage of it often. My car is due in April 13th.

That's excellent - since most of the power generated by the panels at that P&R is given back to PG&E for free.