Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

[RegGuheert]

And it sounds to me like Nissan may wish to restrict the trade-in offer to the factory-installed battery pack.

...Battery replacements are now available for purchase at your certified Nissan LEAF dealers in the United States. The suggested retail price of the Nissan LEAF battery pack is $5,499. This price includes and requires a return of your original battery pack (valued at $1,000) to the dealer in exchange for the new battery...

This might be intended to prevent a LEAF owner for example, with ~80% of original battery capacity, from realizing a profit from swapping with a LEAF owner with a truly worn-out battery (one beneath repurposing value) then trading that one in for the $1,000 credit.

That's an interesting possibility. I had assumed this meant simply that you cannot keep the battery that you have.

But this may present a problem for LEAF owners who want or need a battery closer to new capacity.

I expect I'll probably want to replace my pack at ~80% of new capacity, when it can longer comfortably complete my 50-60 mile regular trip (starting out with ~2000 ft. total descent, returning with the same ascent, and with no public charge sites en route) in winter.

At that point, my pack will still have the capacity to provide tens of thousand of miles and many years of service to someone who only wants to use their LEAF as a shorter-range vehicle. And of course, I would like to be paid for that use of my battery, the remaining fraction of the utility I paid for in 2011.

I may decide to just sell the entire car, and buy a new or used BEV replacement (and that may turn out to be the cheapest way to swap batteries) but I hope I'll have other choices.

Hopefully, the aftermarket will give me options that Nissan does not...at least not yet.

Swapping vehicles or batteries sounds like an interesting possibility. I'm all for using these batteries as long as possible before sending them off to whatever their fates may be.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

A technical question... when my car is 10 years old, and has 160,000 miles on it, would I be able to expect another 100,000 miles of economic life from it to make it worth changing the battery? Living in Washington, and looking at the distances I need for it to operate, that's about the time I think It will need to be replaced. I'm thinking the replacement battery will only be needed in the warmer climates.

as with any relatively limited run, you might have an issue getting a battery that is compatible that far in the future. if there had been a 100,000 units sold, ya you might have "some" luck but keep in mind; we are not talking about fenders or engine parts, we are talking an item that has a shelf life.

so there will need to be a small amount of these packs built nearly every year to satisfy any needs. eventually Nissan will have to simply come out and say the packs will now longer be available. whine all you want, but this is how it is. *glances at the now dusty Win XP machine sitting in corner*

besides in 10 years, the allure of a self driving $25,000 EV that has a 200 mile range will be just too much to resist

 

[DaveInAvl]

eventually Nissan will have to simply come out and say the packs will now longer be available. whine all you want, but this is how it is. *glances at the now dusty Win XP machine sitting in corner*

By that time the picture may well have changed... just as something like http://www.linuxmint.com/ can extend the life of that XP box, who knows what replacement LEAF packs might be available several years down the road?

 

[WetEV]

eventually Nissan will have to simply come out and say the packs will now longer be available. whine all you want, but this is how it is. *glances at the now dusty Win XP machine sitting in corner*

By that time the picture may well have changed... just as something like http://www.linuxmint.com/ can extend the life of that XP box, who knows what replacement LEAF packs might be available several years down the road?

The box isn't the big problem. The applications on the old OS might not be easily replaceable.

 

[TimLee]

... eventually Nissan will have to simply come out and say the packs will now longer be available. whine all you want, but this is how it is. *glances at the now dusty Win XP machine sitting in corner*

besides in 10 years, the allure of a self driving $25,000 EV that has a 200 mile range will be just too much to resist

Good point Dave.
But my 2001 XP machine cost $2,400 and is actually still running although poorly, while the LEAF cost $34,000 ($24,000 after government subsidies).
And most ICE vehicles could be kept operating for 25 years, although very few are kept operating that long.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

... eventually Nissan will have to simply come out and say the packs will now longer be available. whine all you want, but this is how it is. *glances at the now dusty Win XP machine sitting in corner*

besides in 10 years, the allure of a self driving $25,000 EV that has a 200 mile range will be just too much to resist

Good point Dave.
But my 2001 XP machine cost $2,400 and is actually still running although poorly, while the LEAF cost $34,000 ($24,000 after government subsidies).
And most ICE vehicles could be kept operating for 25 years, although very few are kept operating that long.

The reason they have gassers that old is because parts can sit on the shelf for 20 years. Batteries cant. The best we can hope for is the ability to supply a power source becomes cheap enough and flexible enough that something in the future can spoof a pack

 

[johnrhansen]

I know what I'm going to do.. that battery weighs 600 pounds... take it all out and stuff a mid engined 454 back there.

 

[Nubo]

The reason they have gassers that old is because parts can sit on the shelf for 20 years. Batteries cant. The best we can hope for is the ability to supply a power source becomes cheap enough and flexible enough that something in the future can spoof a pack

And that will almost certainly happen. It's happening now with people converting cars that were never even electric to begin with!. And while that does take a high level of commitment, simpler approaches already exist for things like power tools and old laptops -- battery packs can be had aftermarket, and if the model is obscure, services exist to rebuild your existing packs; often with cells that are far superior to the originals.

I've said it for awhile now; one sure sign that social acceptance of EVs is turning the corner, will be when there is a supply of cheap, used EVs on the market and the young-un's start rebuilding, modifying, and "tuning" them. It will happen.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

The reason they have gassers that old is because parts can sit on the shelf for 20 years. Batteries cant. The best we can hope for is the ability to supply a power source becomes cheap enough and flexible enough that something in the future can spoof a pack

And that will almost certainly happen. It's happening now with people converting cars that were never even electric to begin with!. And while that does take a high level of commitment, simpler approaches already exist for things like power tools and old laptops -- battery packs can be had aftermarket, and if the model is obscure, services exist to rebuild your existing packs; often with cells that are far superior to the originals.

I've said it for awhile now; one sure sign that social acceptance of EVs is turning the corner, will be when there is a supply of cheap, used EVs on the market and the young-un's start rebuilding, modifying, and "tuning" them. It will happen.

i think we can all agree that DIY'ers are a completely different category. unless one is willing to buy a kit and do the work themselves, I don't think this is a valid option

 

[JPWhite]

I see Tesla have also announced a battery replacement program of their own for the Roadster.

http://transportevolved.com/2014/07...ric-car-owners-400-mile-battery-pack-upgrade/

At least Nissan were first to announce such a program!! Actually Nissan were 2 years faster if you consider when the vehicles were introduced to market, not that I'm suggesting Nissan should have taken anymore time!!! :roll:

 

[dhanson865]

I see Tesla have also announced a battery replacement program of their own for the Roadster.

http://transportevolved.com/2014/07...ric-car-owners-400-mile-battery-pack-upgrade/

At least Nissan were first to announce such a program!! Actually Nissan were 2 years faster if you consider when the vehicles were introduced to market, not that I'm suggesting Nissan should have taken anymore time!!! :roll:

Not the same at all. Nissan wasn't first because they haven't done it yet, and won't do it.

The key difference is Tesla is offering a 3rd generation higher capacity battery for their 1st generation vehicles. Much higher capacity than it originally was designed to handle.

Nissan hasn't done anything of the sort for the Leaf.

 

[Nubo]

The reason they have gassers that old is because parts can sit on the shelf for 20 years. Batteries cant. The best we can hope for is the ability to supply a power source becomes cheap enough and flexible enough that something in the future can spoof a pack

And that will almost certainly happen. It's happening now with people converting cars that were never even electric to begin with!. And while that does take a high level of commitment, simpler approaches already exist for things like power tools and old laptops -- battery packs can be had aftermarket, and if the model is obscure, services exist to rebuild your existing packs; often with cells that are far superior to the originals.

I've said it for awhile now; one sure sign that social acceptance of EVs is turning the corner, will be when there is a supply of cheap, used EVs on the market and the young-un's start rebuilding, modifying, and "tuning" them. It will happen.

i think we can all agree that DIY'ers are a completely different category. unless one is willing to buy a kit and do the work themselves, I don't think this is a valid option

What I meant by "simpler approach"... If a market exists, someone could fill it by providing a plug-compatible pack that a reasonably well-equipped garage could install.

 

[mwalsh]

Nissan hasn't done anything of the sort for the Leaf.

Yet.

But we're just the people to help them along in making the decision to do so, right? :mrgreen:

 

[JPWhite]

Not the same at all. Nissan wasn't first because they haven't done it yet, and won't do it.

.

I agree the programs are very different in motivation and scope, but its a little harsh to say Nissan haven't done anything and won't do anything.

The 2011/12 models do require a kit to fit the new form factor battery pack to the vehicle and does provide the 'current technology' to the old vehicles. Clearly not the same leap in technology, but I do see Nissan's willingness to retrofit new batteries to old cars as promising for when they DO bring out the Gen II pack with greater range. Time will tell.

There are reasons to be cheerful (other than a cheese and pickle sandwich and slap and tickle).

 

[asimba2]

Notice Chevy/Ford/Toyota/Fiat/Mercedes have not responded with their own BEV pack replacement prices?

The Ford Focus pack costs $17,355.76 for the A and B packs.
http://www.myfocuselectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=635" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[edatoakrun]

Notice Chevy/Ford/Toyota/Fiat/Mercedes have not responded with their own BEV pack replacement prices?

The Ford Focus pack costs $17,355.76 for the A and B packs.
http://www.myfocuselectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=635" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Of course, no sane FFE owner would ever actually buy a replacement battery at that price.

I expect the compliance BEV manufactures will be forced to announce (relatively) low battery prices, just as they have for their new vehicles, in order to come close to matching the market-leading LEAF prices.

But either the manufacturer or the owners will probably take a bath on all the compliance BEV parts, eventually.

edatoakrun (p34)

If I decide to hold onto my leaf into the next decade (which now looks likely) I may also decide to replace my battery before it loses ~30% capacity.

But I doubt I'll have to buy a replacement from Nissan.

I expect there to be plenty of used/rebuilt/aftermarket pack choices by that time, and for far less than ~$6,000.

This is the major advantage of owning a mass-production BEV, as opposed as any of the low-volume compliance BEVs on the US market.

Hundreds of thousands of LEAFs (and other battery Nissan/Renault vehicles with compatible battery designs) on the road will build a market for replacement pack options.

Notice Chevy/Ford/Toyota/Fiat/Mercedes have not responded with their own BEV pack replacement prices?

Wonder when they will?

I expect it to be very difficult and expensive to keep one of those BEVs on the road, in it's second decade.

 

[TomT]

Nissan is not doing it out of some desire to be magnanimous... They are doing it because it would simply be too expensive and cumbersome to have to maintain two different stocks of essentially the same replacement batteries in the future...

The 2011/12 models do require a kit to fit the new form factor battery pack to the vehicle and does provide the 'current technology' to the old vehicles. Clearly not the same leap in technology, but I do see Nissan's willingness to retrofit new batteries to old cars as promising for when they DO bring out the Gen II pack with greater range.

 

[JPWhite]

Nissan is not doing it out of some desire to be magnanimous... They are doing it because it would simply be too expensive and cumbersome to have to maintain two different stocks of essentially the same replacement batteries in the future...

They are being reasonable however. They could just have easily said, yes we have battery price for 2013/14/15 models. 2011/12 you guys are SOL, I'd hate to be you.

 

[Stanton]

Nissan is not doing it out of some desire to be magnanimous... They are doing it because it would simply be too expensive and cumbersome to have to maintain two different stocks of essentially the same replacement batteries in the future...

They are being reasonable however. They could just have easily said, yes we have battery price for 2013/14/15 models. 2011/12 you guys are SOL, I'd hate to be you.

Exactly. I sometimes chafe at the cynicsm in this thread. Bottom line: this announcement will benefit many of us early adopters (2011/2012 Leafs).

 

[TomT]

The discussion was simply on the merits and ramifications of having to maintain multiple, different battery inventories, nothing more... Sometime people try to read things in to comments that are simply not there from the OP...

Nissan is not doing it out of some desire to be magnanimous... They are doing it because it would simply be too expensive and cumbersome to have to maintain two different stocks of essentially the same replacement batteries in the future...

They are being reasonable however. They could just have easily said, yes we have battery price for 2013/14/15 models. 2011/12 you guys are SOL, I'd hate to be you.

Exactly. I sometimes chafe at the cynicsm in this thread. Bottom line: this announcement will benefit many of us early adopters (2011/2012 Leafs).