Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

[TomT]

Yes, the assumption is that it will only apply to those areas where accelerated battery degradation due to heat has been an issue...

Let's not forget the Lizard batteries performance will most probably only be better for hot climates. For Europe/Pacific NW there maybe little to no improvement. Don't expect whichever multiplier 2X, 3X, 10X, 1000X.... we assign to the lizard battery the real world experience/improvement will vary by region.

 

[goixiz]

I've been following the accelerated degradation due to heat issue of the battery.

Is this heat during usage or parked or is during charge that causes the issue ?

 

[JPWhite]

I've been following the accelerated degradation due to heat issue of the battery.

Is this heat during usage or parked or is during charge that causes the issue ?

Battery Heat x Time is the major factor with the old LEAF battery.

Charging/discharging will create heat internally, however the degradation is a primarily factor of how long the battery spends at a specific temperature not so much how it changes temperature or how quickly it changes. The battery doesn't know or care what the car is doing.

Battery University website indicates that for typical Li-ion chemistries, any time the battery gets above 86F it degrades more rapidly. Who knows what the new temperature curve will look like for the now lizard battery - much better we hope.

If the heat tolerance is effective, mileage/battery cycles may become the major factor causing degradation.

 

[goixiz]

JPW Thanks for the clarification and the info for me to get more acquainted and prepared for the dreaded battery degrade.

SO how many generations of batteries has there been for the leaf since inception and what corresponding years are they so i am more aware of the pottential issues witth my 2014 (3 weeks old)

 

[myleaf]

JPW Thanks for the clarification and the info for me to get more acquainted and prepared for the dreaded battery degrade.

SO how many generations of batteries has there been for the leaf since inception and what corresponding years are they so i am more aware of the pottential issues witth my 2014 (3 weeks old)

goixiz - what state/city do you live in. People in the same area maybe able to let you know what you can expect in terms of battery degradation.

 

[myleaf]

They need an emoticon for facetious and satire... But seriously, it had better be at least three times better...

Let's not forget the Lizard batteries performance will most probably only be better for hot climates. For Europe/Pacific NW there maybe little to no improvement. Don't expect whichever multiplier 2X, 3X, 10X, 1000X.... we assign to the lizard battery the real world experience/improvement will vary by region.

I feel that any improvements to the battery capacity thermal degradation in hot climates should also apply to the cooler climates. A 3x improvement in Phx should give you a 3X improvement in PNW. But once battery capacity thermal degradation is reduced to insignificant levels, capacity degradation resulting from other degradation modes (charging cycles, etc) will be observed.

 

[TomT]

All of the above!

Is this heat during usage or parked or is during charge that causes the issue ?

 

[TomT]

Probably not in actuality. In cool climates like the PNW, time and cycles is the major source of degradation and I don't expect that the lizard will improve upon that...

I feel that any improvements to the battery capacity thermal degradation in hot climates should also apply to the cooler climates. A 3x improvement in Phx should give you a 3X improvement in PNW.

 

[mwalsh]

SO how many generations of batteries has there been for the leaf since inception and what corresponding years are they so i am more aware of the pottential issues witth my 2014 (3 weeks old)

Only the one - a chemistry tweak for the 2014 model year that made it into the late 2013s. Then we're expecting the Lizzard pack for the 2015, and are praying that it will be the final cure for the thermal issue.

 

[myleaf]

Probably not in actuality. In cool climates like the PNW, time and cycles is the major source of degradation and I don't expect that the lizard will improve upon that...

I feel that any improvements to the battery capacity thermal degradation in hot climates should also apply to the cooler climates. A 3x improvement in Phx should give you a 3X improvement in PNW.

I mentioned "battery capacity thermal degradation" I totally agree with your statement.

 

[myleaf]

SO how many generations of batteries has there been for the leaf since inception and what corresponding years are they so i am more aware of the pottential issues witth my 2014 (3 weeks old)

Only the one - a chemistry tweak for the 2014 model year that made it into the late 2013s. Then we're expecting the Lizzard pack for the 2015, and are praying that it will be the final cure for the thermal issue.

Wasn't a minor tweek (lizard) planned for 2015 and a major change in 2017 ?

 

[TomT]

But that tweak was not to improve performance or degradation, it was simply to facilitate manufacturing (and slightly reduce costs) when the plant opened in the U.S.

Only the one - a chemistry tweak for the 2014 model year that made it into the late 2013s. Then we're expecting the Lizzard pack for the 2015, and are praying that it will be the final cure for the thermal issue.

 

[fotajoye]

Since this thread is now mostly speculation, let me guess also:

Nissan requires a core because they only want to offer the quoted price to Leaf owners; they won't sell over the counter at that price not only because of liability problems; but, also because of DIY conversion builders who would love to buy at that price point.

Also, let me be so bold to think Nissan offsets the cost of their batteries by selling the battery as a part of the whole car where the cost is subsidized by charging a higher price for the other parts of the whole car.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

So one question that begs to be answered out of curiosity is what the battery actually costs Nissan... One has to assume that they are not losing money at $5,500 retail so the cost of the battery must be equal to or less than this... That being the case, it can be argued that the cost of the battery is much less of a percentage of the vehicle cost than originally surmised... And that Nissan is making more on the Leaf (or losing less) than some suggested...

Knock the core charge out - and the price per kWh is UNDER $190. DANG ... never thought they'd pull off that kind of pricing. I'm optimistic, but I never imagined this.

Question NOW is ... rather than let the stealership soak you for 3 hours labor . . . will they sell it to you on a pallet? I've monkey'd with the pack enough to know the HV dangers/cautions necessary to take - and the change out would make a fun week end project.
Yea - it'll probably never happen.

guessing that won't happen. this locks in income to the dealerships, guarantees return of your existing pack, etc. its a lot of conditions and they knew that going in but chose to NOT make the same mistake as they did in the lease program by putting it at a price that allows many to overlook a lot...

imm, it will probably work.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Let's not forget the Lizard batteries performance will most probably only be better for hot climates. For Europe/Pacific NW there maybe little to no improvement. Don't expect whichever multiplier 2X, 3X, 10X, 1000X.... we assign to the lizard battery the real world experience/improvement will vary by region.[/quote]

yes, we can continue to doubt Nissan every step of the way. perhaps we should post Steve Coram (who lives less than a charge from Canada) and his 10 TB LEAF and convince him that because he lives in WA, that new battery won't help him. or maybe I should show you my battery sitting at 88º the other day (ambient was 93º) before driving anywhere (i was parked in the shade...)

the other thing to mention is the thought that there is continuous improvement meaning the 2013/14 battery is better than the 2011/12 batteries. that jury is still out but there but evidence is growing for a confirmation. with the variance seen in driving styles, charging habits and terrains, there will always be an argument no matter what the conclusion. We can only go by what "we" see. I live in the Pacific NW and I have a "reportedly" unimproved 2013 battery pack... we shall see how it goes.

but making the conclusion that improvements won't help unless you live in 100º weather is not something I would bank on especially since they have not even hit the street yet. you are simply providing negative commentary that all will see. it WILL sway a neophyte.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Let's not forget the Lizard batteries performance will most probably only be better for hot climates. For Europe/Pacific NW there maybe little to no improvement. Don't expect whichever multiplier 2X, 3X, 10X, 1000X.... we assign to the lizard battery the real world experience/improvement will vary by region.

yes, we can continue to doubt Nissan every step of the way. perhaps we should post Steve Coram (who lives less than a charge from Canada) and his 10 TB LEAF and convince him that because he lives in WA, that new battery won't help him. or maybe I should show you my battery sitting at 88º the other day (ambient was 93º) before driving anywhere (i was parked in the shade...)

the other thing to mention is the thought that there is continuous improvement meaning the 2013/14 battery is better than the 2011/12 batteries. that jury is still out but there but evidence is growing for a confirmation. with the variance seen in driving styles, charging habits and terrains, there will always be an argument no matter what the conclusion. We can only go by what "we" see. I live in the Pacific NW and I have a "reportedly" unimproved 2013 battery pack... we shall see how it goes.

but making the conclusion that improvements won't help unless you live in 100º weather is not something I would bank on especially since they have not even hit the street yet. you are simply providing negative commentary that all will see. it WILL sway a neophyte.

its funny that everyone is screaming for an "official" announcement before they will believe that Nissan has done anything to improve the LEAF when they did do that for the 2013 and nearly EVERYONE ignored it...

I don't really don't understand why the post here is "unofficial?" is this site really looked upon as that insignificant? Does it have to come from Nissan Corporate to be true? what criteria do we need to accept that?

let me answer that; our preconceived notions of what should be

 

[walterbays]

Since this thread is now mostly speculation, let me guess also:

Nissan requires a core because they only want to offer the quoted price to Leaf owners; they won't sell over the counter at that price not only because of liability problems; but, also because of DIY conversion builders who would love to buy at that price point.

Also, let me be so bold to think Nissan offsets the cost of their batteries by selling the battery as a part of the whole car where the cost is subsidized by charging a higher price for the other parts of the whole car.

Yes Nissan advertised already in 2010 that old batteries would be first reused in stationary applications and then the lithium recycled into new batteries, which is cheaper than mining new lithium.

It appears that Nissan has set the battery trade-in price lower than its value in order to partially offset setting the new price low. I wonder what would happen if a lot of people started to say, no thank you I will pay the extra $1000 and keep my old battery. The reason could be if utilities are successful in their anti-solar power attempts to impose punitive grid connection fees on customers with solar panels. And we know that EV drivers are much more likely than people in general to have solar panels. Going off-grid so far isn't economically practical because of the high cost of batteries needed to store power overnight and through cloudy days. But if good used high capacity batteries become relatively cheap that could change.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Since this thread is now mostly speculation, let me guess also:

Nissan requires a core because they only want to offer the quoted price to Leaf owners; they won't sell over the counter at that price not only because of liability problems; but, also because of DIY conversion builders who would love to buy at that price point.

Also, let me be so bold to think Nissan offsets the cost of their batteries by selling the battery as a part of the whole car where the cost is subsidized by charging a higher price for the other parts of the whole car.

Yes Nissan advertised already in 2010 that old batteries would be first reused in stationary applications and then the lithium recycled into new batteries, which is cheaper than mining new lithium.

It appears that Nissan has set the battery trade-in price lower than its value in order to partially offset setting the new price low. I wonder what would happen if a lot of people started to say, no thank you I will pay the extra $1000 and keep my old battery. The reason could be if utilities are successful in their anti-solar power attempts to impose punitive grid connection fees on customers with solar panels. And we know that EV drivers are much more likely than people in general to have solar panels. Going off-grid so far isn't economically practical because of the high cost of batteries needed to store power overnight and through cloudy days. But if good used high capacity batteries become relatively cheap that could change.

nothing will happen. there is NO option to keep your old battery. simple as that.

the real reason (well as real as speculation can get ) is that they are selling us the battery at a price that is not sustainable on the open market.

do you not realize this requirement creates an EXCLUSIVE benefit to LEAF owners and NO ONE ELSE? Tesla has SC, now LEAFers have cheap battery replacements.

we oohed and ahhed over the price without considering that maybe Nissan is giving a break on it since no one else can take advantage of it?

 

[OrientExpress]

SO how many generations of batteries has there been for the leaf since inception and what corresponding years are they so i am more aware of the pottential issues witth my 2014 (3 weeks old)

Only the one - a chemistry tweak for the 2014 model year that made it into the late 2013s. Then we're expecting the Lizzard pack for the 2015, and are praying that it will be the final cure for the thermal issue.

I'd add to this, that the Gen 1 battery (2011-2012) had several components that were revised during the latter part of the production run, including 2 revs to the individual cells.

For the 2013 ~ 15 model year, the Gen 2 battery was introduced into production and was a completely revised pack with new cells, etc. Gen 1 packs have the exterior casing painted Grey, and the Gen 2 packs have that case painted black. Because of the differences in the Gen 2 pack, it needs an adaptor kit to be installed in cars that came with the Gen 1 pack.

The Gen 2 pack is 300 pounds lighter than the Gen 1 pack, and combined with the weight increases (steel vs aluminum body panels, etc) for the 2013~2015 cars made for a net weight decrease of the car by 40 [edited] pounds. The Gen 2 pack has had a number of component revisions since its introduction, which includes the latest more heat tolerant individual cells. There are some late 2014 production cars that may also have this pack as it was a rolling production change.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

SO how many generations of batteries has there been for the leaf since inception and what corresponding years are they so i am more aware of the pottential issues witth my 2014 (3 weeks old)

Only the one - a chemistry tweak for the 2014 model year that made it into the late 2013s. Then we're expecting the Lizzard pack for the 2015, and are praying that it will be the final cure for the thermal issue.

I'd add to this, that the Gen 1 battery (2011-2012) had several components that were revised during the latter part of the production run, including 2 revs to the individual cells.

For the 2013 ~ 15 model year, the Gen 2 battery was introduced into production and was a completely revised pack with new cells, etc. Gen 1 packs have the exterior casing painted Grey, and the Gen 2 packs have that case painted black. Because of the differences in the Gen 2 pack, it needs an adaptor kit to be installed in cars that came with the Gen 1 pack.

The Gen 2 pack is 300 pounds lighter than the Gen 1 pack, and combined with the weight increases (steel vs aluminum body panels, etc) for the 2013~2015 cars made for a net weight decrease of the car by 45 pounds. The Gen 2 pack has had a number of component revisions since its introduction, which includes the latest more heat tolerant individual cells. There are some late 2014 production cars that may also have this pack as it was a rolling production change.

part of the weight reduction was a change in casing. the modules are cased in metal and then a larger outer case contains the pack. this was done to prevent a damaged module from affecting surrounding modules. the newer cases were lighter and allowed more air flow.