Ugh, caught myself changing behavior over heat issue

[DaveinOlyWA]

Unless I'm missing something here, I think the "charging 1 hour per day" routine was DIS-proved since the Leaf's main battery pack automatically charges the 12V battery (when NOT connected to EVSE) every 5 days

I don't believe the routine was "disproved". It may well be unnecessary, particularly in the circumstances you cite, but it is still valid. Say you roll into the airport with 20% charge remaining, and you'd like it to be at 80% or 100% when you return. That's going to require being plugged into an EVSE.

Thanks for all the tips. My main issue is that the Garage that I house my Leaf is about 0.8miles away, so it's not that trivial for me to walk over just to plug the car in. I'd like to keep the EVSE plugged in so I can start the charging remotely the day before I arrive so I can have a fully charged car. I'm hoping that the 0.5~1hr daily charge can prevent the 12V from draining while keeping traction battery only partially charged to prevent damage.

Even though I live in San Fran, I'm still a bit worried about the battery after hearing all the bad news coming out of AZ.

you can gauge the validity of your worries by how often you see TB #7 lit up

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

To me charging end timers are extremely impractical for the general public for a standard use vehicle. After I get home from work and the charge is low about 50% of the time I will have to go somewhere before I go to sleep and if I do, that usually invovles at least a 3-4 bar round trip, impossible if my car has not been charging since I got home. To me, a family with kids in the suburbs would never be able to take advantage of it. I don't have kids now, and I cannot even possibly imagine doing an end timer when I finally do have kids around.

That said, we SHOULD NOT have to delay charging of the vehicle for proper use. To me, its arguing that you can't fill up your ICE car until the morning and if you need to go out again, tough luck. That is NOT the way to get mass adaption. "Filling up" your vehicle when its low on fuel is part of car ownership, denying that causes numerous problems that people will not want to deal with. Besides, I do not want range anxiety when driving to a hospital.

I wholeheartedly agree. A TMS would have solved all these concerns and guesswork. Plug it in when you get home. If the battery is too hot, the TMS will cool it and you don't have to delay charging. We have a Volt and LEAF in the garage and I can hear the Volt TMS running quite a bit in the evenings. I do have the LEAF on an end timer now for an early morning charge completion, and we have the luxury of having the two cars, but as you mentioned, it is unfortunate the LEAF seems to require such precautions.

I'm sure it will get better in later revisions. In fact, it must.

While I agree the TMS is preferable, there is value in the car knowing when it will be driven next so it does not charge during peak load times. Your Volt is doing the power company a disservice by charging unnecessarily in the evening hours and cooling the battery to boot.

The bug mentioned on this thread not withstanding, for people who sleep at night the combination of an end-time-only timer combined with the "I'm-going-out-again-soon-charge-now-dammit" override button seems to work pretty well.

 

[Nubo]

To me charging end timers are extremely impractical for the general public for a standard use vehicle. After I get home from work and the charge is low about 50% of the time I will have to go somewhere before I go to sleep and if I do, that usually invovles at least a 3-4 bar round trip, impossible if my car has not been charging since I got home. To me, a family with kids in the suburbs would never be able to take advantage of it. I don't have kids now, and I cannot even possibly imagine doing an end timer when I finally do have kids around.

That said, we SHOULD NOT have to delay charging of the vehicle for proper use. To me, its arguing that you can't fill up your ICE car until the morning and if you need to go out again, tough luck. That is NOT the way to get mass adaption. "Filling up" your vehicle when its low on fuel is part of car ownership, denying that causes numerous problems that people will not want to deal with. Besides, I do not want range anxiety when driving to a hospital.

Each person has unique requirements, certainly. For me, charging to 80%, I usually have around 4 bars remaining when I get home. 5 if I've been careful. More than enough for most local errands. When necessary I'll hit timer override to add some charge for a longer evening drive. This only adds a second or two. Of course it means having to manually stop the charge if the evening ride doesn't materialize, then plug in again so that the end timer catches the rest of the charge. A minor hassle, though I can understand in your situation you may never know and so you'd be looking at a manual start/stop cycle every evening. It's unfortunate that Nissan doesn't provide a more robust charging timer interface to handle this type of pattern.

From a larger perspective, timers are going to be important for mass adoption of EVs, simply because the load on the infrastructure for millions of EVs needs to be largely placed into what is now the low-demand period at night. That at least fits well with the best-practice at least from a battery health perspective. The issue of having evening capacity on hand can be partly relieved by better timer interface but probably moreso by increased battery capacities. For example, with a 50kWH pack your evening concerns would probably evaporate while still allowing all of your charging to be accomplished painlessly with an end-timer.

 

[shrink]

[
While I agree the TMS is preferable, there is value in the car knowing when it will be driven next so it does not charge during peak load times. Your Volt is doing the power company a disservice by charging unnecessarily in the evening hours and cooling the battery to boot.

Do you happen to know when peak hours are in Phoenix, AZ? FYI - evenings are off peak for my particular plan. Cooling the battery is hardly a disservice in Phoenix especially when the Volt TMS uses something like 150W (I'd have to double check the reference). Such a sin, I know, especially when my solar panels are producing electricity for the grid during on peak times.

The lack of TMS is proving to be far more of a disservice. Emergencies and the unexpected also happen and it'd be nice to be able to take the LEAF without worrying about its battery temperature.

 

[dandrewk]

To me charging end timers are extremely impractical for the general public for a standard use vehicle. After I get home from work and the charge is low about 50% of the time I will have to go somewhere before I go to sleep and if I do, that usually invovles at least a 3-4 bar round trip, impossible if my car has not been charging since I got home. To me, a family with kids in the suburbs would never be able to take advantage of it. I don't have kids now, and I cannot even possibly imagine doing an end timer when I finally do have kids around.

That said, we SHOULD NOT have to delay charging of the vehicle for proper use. To me, its arguing that you can't fill up your ICE car until the morning and if you need to go out again, tough luck. That is NOT the way to get mass adaption. "Filling up" your vehicle when its low on fuel is part of car ownership, denying that causes numerous problems that people will not want to deal with. Besides, I do not want range anxiety when driving to a hospital.

We have kids, and live in the suburbs. Charging using end timers is what we do, and it has never, ever been a problem. I don't see how you can say "extremely impractical". To say we would "never be able to take advantage of it" is totally off base.

As to the rest - like it or not, we ARE early adopters and will have to come into EV's with a certain amount of fore-knowledge, chief among these is proper battery management to preserve longevity. If a prospective owner can't be bothered with the few minor adjustments involved in moving away from ICE's, they should stay away from EV's.

It's not like it's rocket science, and complaints being lodged here are probably similar to complaints made a hundred years ago when horse/buggy owners were blown away with all the things they had to do making the switch to cars. It's not HARDER or MORE COMPLICATED, it's just DIFFERENT. Anyone unable or unwilling to change habits should feel free to keep buying ICE's.

Everyone has different attitudes and experiences. To me, owning an EV is SIMPLER than an ICE. I don't have to worry about stopping on my way home to get gas... my garage IS my gas station. I don't have to wait for a free pump, stand around twiddling my thumbs waiting for the tank to fill, watching that dial spin away a good chunk of my income. I simply go home, plug in the car and.... done! I don't have to keep a sharp eye on my odometer, making sure to get the oil changed... or get the car tuned up... or getting is smogged... again! I don't have to worry about short trips adding wear and tear to the engine, nor do I have to EVER feel guilty about spewing huge chunks of hydrocarbons into the atmosphere every time I start the car.

 

[Nubo]

It's not HARDER or MORE COMPLICATED, it's just DIFFERENT.

Agreed. There is plenty of arcana involved with the care and feeding of gasoline cars in general, and specific models in particular. It's just that we have become inured to this over generations.

Some people have no mechanical empathy and go through life without taking these issues into account. They either pay others to deal with it or they simply ignore maintenance, for better or worse. They start their gas engines in frigid weather and roar off at max throttle. They speed up steep mountain passes in summer heat with the AC blasting. Then they drag their brakes on the descent instead of using engine braking. Etc., etc...

People are free to do the same with an EV; it's just a different set of knowledge to ignore.

 

[thankyouOB]

we went to the theatre and then dinner. took the Leaf, traveled 70 miles, saved $11.

regardless, my wife who rarely rides in the Leaf, was a bit itchy about traveling between 60 and 65 and the freeway when we could, to ensure we would have sufficient juice.

 

[dandrewk]

regardless, my wife who rarely rides in the Leaf, was a bit itchy about traveling between 60 and 65 and the freeway when we could, to ensure we would have sufficient juice.

Symptoms of a battery with a ~75 mile range. This will improve over time as batteries get better and cheaper. I agree that an affordable 200 mile range EV is needed before they are accepted by the general public.

Until then, buyers will have to buy EV's with eyes open, and try not to be shocked when it can't go 150 miles on a single charge.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

create a reliable fast charge network and i think my current battery pack will work just fine

 

[davewill]

... my wife who rarely rides in the Leaf, was a bit itchy about traveling between 60 and 65 ...

The first time through, I read a word that's very similar to "itchy". :lol:

 

[thankyouOB]

if you can charge at work during an 8-hour workday, would you charge when you arrive or just before going home?

assume 4-5 bar charge to 80%.

 

[Herm]

can you make it home without charging?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

plug in at lunch to finish by 3 for departure at 5 i think it important to not be adding charge during hottest part of day

 

[thankyouOB]

plug in at lunch to finish by 3 for departure at 5 i think it important to not be adding charge during hottest part of day

answer HERM.
yes, I could just charge at home or work, but we had a discussion a few weeks ago that the battery sweet spot is keeping it between 4 bars and 7 bars, which I could do as there is charging at home and work.


as to hot part of the day,
parking is underground and around 75 degrees, so that is not an issue.

thanks for all the contributions to this issue. much appreciated by me.

 

[Cheezmo]

While I agree the TMS is preferable, there is value in the car knowing when it will be driven next so it does not charge during peak load times. Your Volt is doing the power company a disservice by charging unnecessarily in the evening hours and cooling the battery to boot.

The Volt actually has more sophisticated timer settings than the Leaf does if you want to avoid charging during peak hours, charge during low rate periods, etc.

It has not only "delayed departure time" but also "delayed departure time based on utility rates".

Of course it falls on the user to actually use the timers, but by doing so the Volt can be even more utility conscious than the Leaf can.

 

[scottf200]

While I agree the TMS is preferable, there is value in the car knowing when it will be driven next so it does not charge during peak load times. Your Volt is doing the power company a disservice by charging unnecessarily in the evening hours and cooling the battery to boot.

The Volt actually has more sophisticated timer settings than the Leaf does if you want to avoid charging during peak hours, charge during low rate periods, etc.
It has not only "delayed departure time" but also "delayed departure time based on utility rates".
Of course it falls on the user to actually use the timers, but by doing so the Volt can be even more utility conscious than the Leaf can.

You can set this via the cars interface or via myvolt.com. There is a summer and winter schedule but I have no need for it. I just use the yearly one.
Here's a couple pictures of the Volt's scheduling.

Clickable pictures:

.

 

[Herm]

answer HERM.
yes, I could just charge at home or work, but we had a discussion a few weeks ago that the battery sweet spot is keeping it between 4 bars and 7 bars, which I could do as there is charging at home and work.

From that study that drees dug up it looks like it may be better to just keep the SOC low during the day.