toyota rav4 electric

[LTLFTcomposite]

Can someone break down this CARB requirement for me... if you sell a few hundred EV's you can sell Sequoias and Land Cruisers to your heart's content? Or is it one GG for one EV? Or ten GGs for one EV?

 

[Train]

Can someone break down this CARB requirement for me

Basically the same thing CA tried in the 90's and didn't work. Mandating a certain percentage of vehicles sold to be emissions free. It failed because you can't force people to buy something they don't want to buy.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

actually its a 42 Kwh battery pack so a real 100 mile range is very plausible despite the additional weight. for that price, its very reasonable. it sucks that they will produce less than 1000 a year though. obviously a compliance car

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2012-toyota-rav4-ev-photos-and-info-news" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[surfingslovak]

actually its a 42 Kwh battery pack so a real 100 mile range is very plausible despite the additional weight.

Oh, it definitely will. The ActiveE has about the same weight, and it gets a true 100-mile range (94 EPA) with a 32 kWh battery pack (28 kWh usable).

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

actually its a 42 Kwh battery pack so a real 100 mile range is very plausible despite the additional weight.

Oh, it definitely will. The ActiveE has about the same weight, and it gets a true 100-mile range (94 EPA) with a 32 kWh battery pack (28 kWh usable).

knowing Toyota's tendency to be overly cautious, i am wondering how much of that large pack will be usable? a vehicle that large running at 60 mph on the freeway, now to get 100 miles we would be doing around 3 miles/K so maybe fudging a bit it be 36 of the 42 K? that is pretty aggressive for Toyota so i may have to say 34 Kwh usable or 80%

 

[TEG]

Can someone break down this CARB requirement for me

Basically the same thing CA tried in the 90's and didn't work. Mandating a certain percentage of vehicles sold to be emissions free. It failed because you can't force people to buy something they don't want to buy.

Or another perspective:

If a state government tries to force car manufacturers to make a product that loses them money, they will try to find ways to get out of the obligation...

But this time around, we have the now known fear of bad publicity if they don't comply.
But many will try to comply to the absolute minimum of the requirement.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Can someone break down this CARB requirement for me

Basically the same thing CA tried in the 90's and didn't work. Mandating a certain percentage of vehicles sold to be emissions free. It failed because you can't force people to buy something they don't want to buy.

Or another perspective:

If a state government tries to force car manufacturers to make a product that loses them money, they will try to find ways to get out of the obligation...

But this time around, we have the now known fear of bad publicity if they don't comply.
But many will try to comply to the absolute minimum of the requirement.

I don't see where the requirement matters all that much:

The combined fleet fuel economy for an auto manufacturer of cars and trucks with a GVWR of 10,000 lbs or less will have to average 35.5mpg. The average for its cars will have to be 42 mpg, and for its trucks will be 26 mpg by 2016, all based upon CAFE Standards.[6] If the manufacturers do not meet these standards, they will be assessed a $5 fee per vehicle made for every .1mpg that they're under the standard for.

So if I'm only making Range Rovers that get 11mpg I just pay $750 and pass that cost along to the buyers. Big deal, those SUVs sell for 70 grand. Why would Toyota or anyone bother making electric cars just to avoid that slap on the wrist with a wet noodle?

 

[coqui]

If people want to buy Range Rovers they're going to buy Range Rovers. I think its a stupid decision, but what I think has no effect on them. Just in my neighbourhood, one has a Hummer and another has a Suburban, both new.

Back to the rav4 topic:
With a base price like that, add tax/tag/license, extended warranty, misc fees, and you've got a car that'll be well over $50k. You'd have to think long and hard before doing that.

And how come California gets everything first?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Can someone break down this CARB requirement for me

Basically the same thing CA tried in the 90's and didn't work. Mandating a certain percentage of vehicles sold to be emissions free. It failed because you can't force people to buy something they don't want to buy.

:lol:

so what yer sayin' is ya cant force someone to make something they don wanna sell when they can afford to buy the best lobbyist in the world?

 

[Herm]

Can someone break down this CARB requirement for me... if you sell a few hundred EV's you can sell Sequoias and Land Cruisers to your heart's content? Or is it one GG for one EV? Or ten GGs for one EV?

Start reading here:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2012/01/arb-20120127.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The controversial new class BEVx:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2012/01/bevx-20120129.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

+1... a no go for us.

...
But unfortunately no QC ports ..? WTF ?

 

[TEG]

...
I don't see where the requirement matters all that much:
...
So if I'm only making Range Rovers that get 11mpg I just pay $750 and pass that cost along to the buyers. Big deal, those SUVs sell for 70 grand. Why would Toyota or anyone bother making electric cars just to avoid that slap on the wrist with a wet noodle?

I think it is more than just a $750 fine for non-compliance.

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/laws/law/CA/4249" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...Manufacturers with annual sales greater than 60,000 vehicles must produce and deliver for sale in California a minimum percentage of ZEVs...

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/zevcredits/2010zevcredits.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...The ZEV regulation requires large volume and intermediate volume vehicle manufacturers to bring to and operate in California a certain percent of ZEVs (such as battery electric and fuel cell vehicles)...

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/factsheets/zev_tutorial.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...If the manufacturer ... fails to comply, the manufacturer is subject to financial penalties outlined in HSC 43211
Health and Safety Code 43211
$5,000 penalty per vehicle not produced

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Thanks for the links Herm and TEG. A lot to digest there.

So a major mfr like Toyota selling in CA has to make 0.79% ZEVs? To Train's point, you can't make people buy them, but if you require that is what a mfr has to build, they're going to get bought and used by somebody, even if it isn't their first choice. I'm picturing a scenario where there's a row of Leafs on the back lot at a Nissan dealer marked down to $17k, and they have to sell one of them for every 10 Armadas they want to sell. So instead of being a toy for rich people, the EV becomes the new "economy car".

 

[TEG]

Their usual plan involves getting many into fleets. Somehow, someone convinces some government orgs and utilities to lease a bunch.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-confirms-rav4-ev-for-public-fleet-sales-in-2012.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...Speaking out against numerous rumors to the contrary, Toyota has stated that it will sell the upcoming RAV4 EV not only to fleets but to the general public as well...

I think their primary goal is to put their needed "quota" to fleets, but also offer to sell limited numbers to individuals.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Their usual plan involves getting many into fleets. Somehow, someone convinces some government orgs and utilities to lease a bunch.

You make one sale and you're done. That tees up a bunch of photo ops for the enterprise that bought them, and everyone can get back to what they were doing.

I think their primary goal is to put their needed "quota" to fleets, but also offer to sell limited numbers to individuals.

Depends on how you define "sell". From dictionary.com:

sell [sel] noun, verb (used with object)
1. to transfer (goods) to or render (services) for another in exchange for money; dispose of to a purchaser for a price: He sold the car to me for $1000.
2. to deal in; keep or offer for sale: He sells insurance. This store sells my favorite brand.
3. to make a sale or offer for sale to: He'll sell me the car for $1000.
4. to persuade or induce (someone) to buy something: The salesman sold me on a more expensive model than I wanted.
5. to persuade or induce someone to buy (something): The clerk really sold the shoes to me by flattery.

Don't hold your breath on 4 and 5.

 

[coqui]

Eek !! 42kWh battery and no QC? What are they going to do, leave space for a "future" QC?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Eek !! 42kWh battery and no QC? What are they going to do, leave space for a "future" QC?

i guess we have to think it goes without saying that they will have 6.6 charging since 3.3 would take 3/4th of a day

 

[mitch672]

Eek !! 42kWh battery and no QC? What are they going to do, leave space for a "future" QC?

i guess we have to think it goes without saying that they will have 6.6 charging since 3.3 would take 3/4th of a day

It in fact is going to use Teslas 10KW on board charger, and it will work with lower power EVSE's as well, that was in a writeup I saw last week.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Eek !! 42kWh battery and no QC? What are they going to do, leave space for a "future" QC?

i guess we have to think it goes without saying that they will have 6.6 charging since 3.3 would take 3/4th of a day

It in fact is going to use Teslas 10KW on board charger, and it will work with lower power EVSE's as well, that was in a writeup I saw last week.

guess that will be MUCH lower charging systems since it still states a 6 hour recharge which would be about what a 6.6 would do if the available is in the 34 Kwh range

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Eek !! 42kWh battery and no QC? What are they going to do, leave space for a "future" QC?

i guess we have to think it goes without saying that they will have 6.6 charging since 3.3 would take 3/4th of a day

It in fact is going to use Teslas 10KW on board charger, and it will work with lower power EVSE's as well, that was in a writeup I saw last week.

guess that will be MUCH lower charging systems since it still states a 6 hour recharge which would be about what a 6.6 would do if the available is in the 34 Kwh range