The Sadness of Solar Power -- USA-only version

[DaveinOlyWA]

i know this is a solar thread but keep in mind that no one solution will fix our problem which is why fossil fuels wont work

Wind actually has the potential to provide a much bigger part of the puzzle and they are getting better and better. right now the only real knock is the proximity of them. most of the wind is in unpopulated areas but what if you could position wind close enough to the people ?(70% of the population lives within 50 miles of a major coastline of one type or another) economically and have them still be out of sight?

http://idealab.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/12/energy-department-announces-28m-in-funding-for-7-offshore-wind-projects.php?ref=fpnewsfeed" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[AndyH]

$47M is chump change - leave the food stamp recipients alone - especially in this economy. I'd rather have at least half of the $4+ billion we give to the fossil fuel industry each year for our green power program!

Funny, not to argue for the sake of the arguing - but food stamp receipients - 47 mln receipients - at $6 + billions a month! at less than a 1$ per kwtt in the price of the solar panels - how long would it take to eliminate the need for the fossil fuel? anybody with the calculator? :shock:

No, you're not arguing for the sake of arguing, you just want to push a politically motivated attack even when it doesn't apply to the conversation.

I prefer renewable power because in the long term it will save lives. I'm not willing to starve anyone to plant a single solar panel though, and will turn all my lights and computers off before I let that happen.

You seem to be fine with attacking the weakest in our society - kids, old folks, disabled, folks out of work trying to stay alive as we pull out of the largest depression since 1929 - yet seem to be fine giving a pass to an industry that makes more money than many countries yet still gets billions in corporate welfare. No, it's not funny, I think it's damn sad.

Sorry - I will not join you there.

 

[Viktor]

I'm getting about 50 years, based on 4 Trillion kWh annual electric energy consumption, 75% of which is fossil, and $1/kW solar installed.

I believe we consume slightly more than 25 Twh a year - as per Wikipedia.

And as far as attacking weakest - I do not. But simply read your history books - all the greatest countries went belly up after becoming politically correct. I just hate to see how we promote failure and weakness.

 

[Smidge204]

And as far as attacking weakest - I do not. But simply read your history books - all the greatest countries went belly up after becoming politically correct. I just hate to see how we promote failure and weakness.

I'm not sure what history books you've been reading, but I'd love to see a specific example of a societies crumbling because they dared to take care of each other. On the other hand, history is rife with examples of civilization falling apart to endless war and uprising due to social inequality and rampant poverty...

As for paying for all these alternative energy improvements, maybe we can stop building Tanks that nobody wants, Aircraft that nobody wants, useless missile defense systems (that nobody wants), maybe skip an aircraft carrier or nuclear sub as well... I'm sure we can cover the cost of expanding our alternative energy capacity. As a bonus, weening ourselves off the petroleum teat will reduce the overall necessity of our military to be everywhere all the time with more firepower than the next five biggest military forces combined.

You complain about ~$78bln/year for SNAP benefits? How's $113bln spend on Afghanistan this year alone?
=Smidge=

 

[Viktor]

How about we just agree that renewable projects should be one of the priorities for our government and society overall and it should be financed accordingly instead of many others inflated government endeavors (military included).
In the end of a day - all we need is a new battery technology and oil and gas will be fazed away by itself. I would just hope that they would come up with the new "Manhattan Project" for battery development and by the time I turn my Leaf to the dealer in Dec of 2014 my EV's options would be greatly extended and my roof solar system would provide me with more energy that I can use.

 

[Herm]

There will come a day when no amount of money will increase the flow of oil. Whine all you want about the high price of renewable energy, but it will ALWAYS be there

You forget the 8:1 EROI of solar panels, perhaps it would be better to invest that rapidly diminishing fossil energy to produce more concrete and steel for nukes or windmills.. Whats the EROI on windmills?

 

[Herm]

I would be more than happy to subsidize clean energy here instead of paying for 47 mln food stamps reciepients. How much more warning do U need - 68 degrees on December 2nd when I was putting Christmas lights outside in Colorado scared me enough to realize that our old way of doing things will not last much longer. Learn from smart Germans - thank God someone is thinking out there.

Wasting electricity with that wanton xmas display of wealth.. when millions of US kids go to bed hungry every night while mommy exchanges the food stamps for cash.. going rate is about 2:1, dont ask me how I know

I propose we trim 30% of the salary of all public servants and teachers to fund our green future.. why do I chose those instead of cops and fire fighters?.. because teachers and bureaucrats care about our Planet. God Bless Them!

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

There will come a day when no amount of money will increase the flow of oil. Whine all you want about the high price of renewable energy, but it will ALWAYS be there

You forget the 8:1 EROI of solar panels, perhaps it would be better to invest that rapidly diminishing fossil energy to produce more concrete and steel for nukes or windmills.. Whats the EROI on windmills?

leave it to someone to continue to talk price. i dont generally post the same link over and over but in a forum of this type, the link really does apply to a half dozen posts.

I still find it hard to believe that a supposedly informed audience still comes up with the same old lame assed excuses. "oh! cant do that because its a dollar more!" when we have a 15 trillion dollar debt and one is whinning about a dollar?

how much would you spend to save your children? or your elderly parents?

http://www.treehugger.com/environmental-policy/air-pollution-responsible-3-million-premature-deaths-year.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Herm]

leave it to someone to continue to talk price. i dont generally post the same link over and over but in a forum of this type, the link really does apply to a half dozen posts.

Dave, I cant open that link but I could try harder.. I simply dont believe it, just walk by any major road and you can smell the difference compared to 30 years ago.. with the exemption of diesel drivers that chip their vehicles.. that bothers me. Nothing to do with what you mentioned but the waters of our country are vastly cleaner than they used to be also.

BTW, any reasonable person will assign a value to a human life.. its not infinite. I am a reasonable person so I will compromise.. for every 4 kWh of windmills lets build 1 kWh of safe nukes, if we have an excess of windpower at times then lets just electrolize water and make hydrogen with that excess of electricity.. pump it into the NG pipeline grid.

 

[AndyH]

leave it to someone to continue to talk price. i dont generally post the same link over and over but in a forum of this type, the link really does apply to a half dozen posts.

I still find it hard to believe that a supposedly informed audience still comes up with the same old lame assed excuses. "oh! cant do that because its a dollar more!" when we have a 15 trillion dollar debt and one is whinning about a dollar?

how much would you spend to save your children? or your elderly parents?

http://www.treehugger.com/environmental-policy/air-pollution-responsible-3-million-premature-deaths-year.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's another log on the price discussion:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ2fjSTgecg[/youtube]

Scroll in to 27:50

"Invest in yourself...Solar thermal panels...you can put these into a spreadsheet...they have about an eight year payback...I automatically have an 11% return baked into this...over the life I have a triple-digit return...of course, oil could go to zero - that's my only risk...but otherwise, this is a guaranteed investment."

 

[AndyH]

... You complain about ~$78bln/year for SNAP benefits? How's $113bln spend on Afghanistan this year alone?
=Smidge=

Various states and/or counties have 'tax holidays' during the year. How about a national defense holiday for a year? Given some notice the DoD can prepare for a short break so there's no harm to our legit defense needs.

The 2012 budget allocated $707.467 billion to the Department of Defense.
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BUDGET-2012-BUD/pdf/BUDGET-2012-BUD-7.pdf

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

leave it to someone to continue to talk price. i dont generally post the same link over and over but in a forum of this type, the link really does apply to a half dozen posts.

Dave, I cant open that link but I could try harder.. I simply dont believe it, just walk by any major road and you can smell the difference compared to 30 years ago.. with the exemption of diesel drivers that chip their vehicles.. that bothers me. Nothing to do with what you mentioned but the waters of our country are vastly cleaner than they used to be also.

BTW, any reasonable person will assign a value to a human life.. its not infinite. I am a reasonable person so I will compromise.. for every 4 kWh of windmills lets build 1 kWh of safe nukes, if we have an excess of windpower at times then lets just electrolize water and make hydrogen with that excess of electricity.. pump it into the NG pipeline grid.

Herm, dont get sucked in by the numbers which look good on paper but simply are not. in most cases, going 99 yards is a great improvement, but when it comes to air quality it is not. we still have not figured out how to get that very fine particulate matter out of the air

It is the very finest soot – so small that it lodges deep within the lungs and from there enters the bloodstream – that contributes to most of the public health toll of air pollution including mortality. Diesel soot, which is also a carcinogen, is a major problem because it is concentrated in cities along transportation corridors impacting densely populated areas. It is thought to contribute to half the premature deaths from air pollution in urban centers. For example one in six people in the U.S. live near a diesel pollution hot spot like a rail yard, port terminal or freeway.

 

[AndyH]

How about we just agree that renewable projects should be one of the priorities for our government and society overall and it should be financed accordingly instead of many others inflated government endeavors (military included).
In the end of a day - all we need is a new battery technology and oil and gas will be fazed away by itself. I would just hope that they would come up with the new "Manhattan Project" for battery development and by the time I turn my Leaf to the dealer in Dec of 2014 my EV's options would be greatly extended and my roof solar system would provide me with more energy that I can use.

We don't need new batteries to expand solar and wind in the US.

We already have a plan and parts of it are being deployed today. With this plan, we can add wind and solar to the power grid, remove all nukes, coal, and petroleum, and cut 75% of natural gas. No new tech is needed, no action is required from any politician. It can be done by business for a profit, support a 130% larger economy, and return billions to the American people.

No government spending or projects need be cut, no children or grandparents need to starve.

As far as I can tell, even sociopaths can find things in Reinventing Fire to love...er, like...er..tolerate slightly...

http://www.rmi.org/ReinventingFire

Energy Efficiency Finally...

http://www.slate.com/articles/techn..._u_s_is_finally_taking_energy_efficiency.html

1990:
http://www.rmi.org/Knowledge-Center/Library/E90-20_NegawattRevolution

 

[smkettner]

I would like to see a low power (1200w?) plug and play model for self install.
Grid tie is the issue to get around.

http://www.solar-electric.com/prsy.html

1980W grid-tied package ready to hang on the wall: http://www.solar-electric.com/2wagrsoposy.html

Same thing in an 'off-grid' package (pull critical circuits from the house main breaker panel and move to this - no grid -tie hassle): http://www.solar-electric.com/1waofsoposyw.html

Just one quick example.

Notice: In many areas of the country, it is not permitted for an unqualified person to connect grid-interactive electrical equipment to the utility grid. It could result in severe penalties and/or fines. Be sure to check your local electrical code and regulations before installing this system. You may need to hire a licensed electrician in order to pass an electrical inspection.

I want a no permit system.

 

[AndyH]

I would like to see a low power (1200w?) plug and play model for self install.
Grid tie is the issue to get around.

http://www.solar-electric.com/prsy.html

1980W grid-tied package ready to hang on the wall: http://www.solar-electric.com/2wagrsoposy.html

Same thing in an 'off-grid' package (pull critical circuits from the house main breaker panel and move to this - no grid -tie hassle): http://www.solar-electric.com/1waofsoposyw.html

Just one quick example.

Notice: In many areas of the country, it is not permitted for an unqualified person to connect grid-interactive electrical equipment to the utility grid. It could result in severe penalties and/or fines. Be sure to check your local electrical code and regulations before installing this system. You may need to hire a licensed electrician in order to pass an electrical inspection.

I want a no permit system.

Please note that neither of these need be connected to the grid. Many are already installing small solar systems to handle a subset of household loads.

Notice: In many parts of the country homeowners are permitted to make electrical connections and/or modifications without a requirement to hire a licensed electrician. The installation passes inspection or it doesn't.

You asked for it and you got it. And the best part is - you get to chose whether to use it or not. Wheeeee! :lol:

As for my system, I'm designing it, shopping for good prices, assembling it, and will be installing it. No permits necessary. Of course, I will wave at the power grid on the way to or from the property just so it doesn't feel lonely.

edit...

smkettner - I have no intention to be snarky here, and you're correct that some situations/locations have tighter restrictions and/or requirements than others.

It appears from info I've been able to find that there are three general situations: off-grid, grid-tied/grid-interactive (injecting power onto the grid), and what I'll call 'critical circuit backup'.

If I build an off-grid power system with an Outback VFX3524, I have an available 120VAC input on the inverter. The inverter also has a computer-controlled transfer switch and battery charger in the case. I have the option of connecting any AC source - generator, wind, another PV system, or a grid connection. This system can provide power to the entire house (typical off-grid installation) or to part of a building's circuits ('critical load backup'). Neither of these installations is connected to the grid or to other circuits in the house. While the wiring and installation should meet NEC requirements, and might need a permit and/or inspection, permits and/or inspections might not be required as neither system is grid-connected.

If I connect to the grid, my inverter is only a load - no power is pushed to the grid. It's my understanding that this is not a 'grid-interactive' connection, but simply another load that's treated the same as a microwave oven or EVSE.

If anyone's got better info, please share it. Thanks.

 

[willk55]

I live in the Sacramento area. My 2 story house roof gets plenty of sun. I'm really confused on the the time required to recoup the cost. I've heard everything from 5 to 30 years.

 

[dhanson865]

I live in the Sacramento area. My 2 story house roof gets plenty of sun. I'm really confused on the the time required to recoup the cost. I've heard everything from 5 to 30 years.

It used to be 30 years, then it was 25 years, then 20 years, and so on. The price keeps dropping (not at a predefined rate).

The other complicated thing is price of electricity. If you live in an area with 10c / kwh it has a longer payback period than if you live in an area with 20c / kwh.

You just need to look at your electric bill and figure out what you pay, then get a quote for a system and see how much it offsets per year and divide the total cost of the system by the yearly savings. If you are young, plan to keep the house, and have tons of cash it is a no brainer. If one of those doesn't sound like you do the math.

Myself I live in an area with cheap electricity, I plan to keep my house, I'm young enough, but I'm tight on cash. It's enough for me that I'll wait for the pricing or my cash situation to change.

For you it might be more of a slam dunk.

 

[garygid]

When my PV system generates extra energy during the day, I feed
it into the grid. That energy goes directly to my three neighbors,
reducing the load on the local transformer, and on the entire
nearly overloaded distribution system. It does not cost the PU
anything to "distribute" the power that I have generated.

Why should I pay the utility for helping them at the peak load times?

In the evening or night, I often use energy from the grid, from a
very lightly loaded, under-utilized distribution system. I have
thus shifted the bulk of my usage to a time where even large
demands for power are well within the capabilities of the
existing distribution system.

Why should they charge their "demand" charges during off-peak hours?

They want to charge me for all the night usage, but not give me
any credit for the substantial help during the day.

 

[garygid]

In at least parts of New York state, even if you are entirely
off the grid, you still have to pay a substantial amount each
month for the distribution system that you are not using.

 

[dgpcolorado]

I live in the Sacramento area. My 2 story house roof gets plenty of sun. I'm really confused on the the time required to recoup the cost. I've heard everything from 5 to 30 years.

It used to be 30 years, then it was 25 years, then 20 years, and so on. The price keeps dropping (not at a predefined rate).

The other complicated thing is price of electricity. If you live in an area with 10c / kwh it has a longer payback period than if you live in an area with 20c / kwh.

You just need to look at your electric bill and figure out what you pay, then get a quote for a system and see how much it offsets per year and divide the total cost of the system by the yearly savings. If you are young, plan to keep the house, and have tons of cash it is a no brainer. If one of those doesn't sound like you do the math.

Myself I live in an area with cheap electricity, I plan to keep my house, I'm young enough, but I'm tight on cash. It's enough for me that I'll wait for the pricing or my cash situation to change.

For you it might be more of a slam dunk.

Well said. However, I took the plunge even though it was not cost-effective (I hired a local solar company rather than try to DIY, although I dug my own postholes and conduit trenches and did my own concrete work) because I knew that someday I wanted to drive on "sunpower". My reasoning: "people buy less useful toys, do they not?" I consider my solar installation as part of the cost of my car, except that it will probably be used for several electric cars over the years.

I consider it curious that people will think nothing about dropping big bucks on a luxury car or a boat, but will balk at solar panels because the installation cost doesn't "pencil-out". Go figure.

My 2¢.