The Sadness of Solar Power -- USA-only version

[thankyouOB]

that is about $2 a year.
1000 shares
2k

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

that is about $2 a year.
1000 shares
2k

my intel stock pays out less than half that i think. seems to me it was like 15 cents per share or something like that? dont keep real close tabs on it. all dividends are rolled over so its not like i get a check... i might have to think about complaining...

 

[AndyH]

I would like to see a low power (1200w?) plug and play model for self install.
Grid tie is the issue to get around.

One is free to install a small battery-backed solar system that is wired into a separate electrical box. Transfer house circuits to the PV box (preferably ones that you'd like to have running even when the grid drops).

Sometimes a healthy side-step saves a bloody forehead and excessive use of tylenol.

 

[nosuchthing]

I am planing on putting up DOW Powerhouse shingles once I buy a second BEV, hopefully in the near future (2 years?). Since I want a big system - minimum 8 kW - I am not going to sell extra juice to PG&E for 3 cents. That was my point.

Germans are much more conscientious about environment ever since the acid rain in the 60s almost destroyed their Black Forest, and their government REWARDS their citizens for being such. That's why they purchase PV juice at subsidized rates of 30 cents per kW. And that's why Germans put those panels on every available roof space. They make, say, 50 bucks a day in summer and loving it all the way to the bank.

I think the point is that everybody, not just the corporations, should pay into carbon funds. It's everyone's business now. We are all culpable generating carbon through driving, barbecues, or by using coal and nat gas powered electricity. And those who do put in the effort and money where their mouth is, i.e. driving Leafs and putting up solar systems should receive the benefit of the carbon tax those who don't should be paying. People make changes when it affects their bank accounts.

That's why it is a great idea to pay 30 cents for your excess solar juice, and not just 3. Germans figured it out. Why can't we?

Of course, we can't even figure out how to get rid of guns, so that's where things stand. I hail from Europe, so I see things through a wider lens, folks.

 

[dgpcolorado]

San Francisco) - PG&E Corporation (NYSE: PCG) today declared its third quarter 2012 regular cash dividend of 45.5 cents per share on the Corporation's common stock. The dividend is payable on October 15, 2012 to shareholders of record on October 1, 2012.

45 cents per share?? wow... guess it all depends on the share price and if its a few hundred, then ok i guess

PCG closed at $40.51. The annual yield is 4.49% ($1.82/share), which is below the utility industry average of 6.32%. Earnings per share are $2.18, so the dividend is covered at present (not surprising for a regulated utility).

Rather than buy solar panels I suppose Northern Californians could buy PCG shares and cover their electricity costs that way...

 

[Smidge204]

I would like to see a low power (1200w?) plug and play model for self install.
Grid tie is the issue to get around.

One is free to install a small battery-backed solar system that is wired into a separate electrical box. Transfer house circuits to the PV box (preferably ones that you'd like to have running even when the grid drops).

Sometimes a healthy side-step saves a bloody forehead and excessive use of tylenol.

What you need is an AC coupling unit. A grid-tie inverter will not produce power unless it sees a "utility grade" voltage and frequency, and an island inverter will not meet code requirements and may not appreciate / play well with utility power.

An AC coupling inverter integrates utility, battery and PV power into one unit. On one side you have utility power input, on the other you have the PV system and all the stuff you want to run on solar if the power goes out, and out the bottom you have your DC input/output to the battery system. It will let power flow through normally, keeping the batteries charged as well, but if utility power is lost it will use battery power to produce AC good enough to fool the PV system so that keeps operating at well. Power flows to and from the batteries as necessary until the utility power comes back. All the while it prevents power from going back out to the grid during an outage, satisfying code requirements. Fancier units will also turn the PV system on/off by adulterating the AC frequency (thus no longer fooling the grid-tie inverter) to prevent the batteries overcharging, so you don't need a separate battery management/diversion load system.

It's an absolutely brilliant setup IMHO. Have your grid-tie PV and eat it too, to turn a phrase!
=Smidge=

 

[Herm]

That's why it is a great idea to pay 30 cents for your excess solar juice, and not just 3. Germans figured it out. Why can't we?.

The part you are not mentioning is that particular 30 cents is paid for by your neighbor, and he may be struggling to pay the very high rates that Germans pay for electricity. What are the rates in Germany?.. here in Florida is about 11 cents a kWh.

I can see windmills but solar in Germany?.. its cloudy a large part of the time.. please leave our guns alone.

http://rt.com/news/germany-poland-nuclear-fukushima-574/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Despite technological advances, wind, solar, hydro and other green energy sources still remain an unprofitable investment in a fair market. The way to encourage their exploitation is through a set of feed-in tariffs, a policy where energy companies are forced to buy electricity from green generators at a price set by the government (which is usually legislated to remain the same for two decades).
The German government has passed the cost of the payment from the energy companies to the consumer. Every German on the grid pays something called Umlage, a special surcharge for supporting green fuels that covers all the green energy subsidies, however much energy is produced.
This week, energy companies announced that the charge would go up by 47 percent for next year. The average Germany household will now pay €250 a year to sponsor green energy producers, four times more than in 2009.
The overall value of the subsidy on green energy is likely to exceed €20 billion next year, about one percent of GDP.
At the same time, the government has relieved large exporting companies (who consume a fifth of Germany’s electricity) from paying Umlage, for fear of crippling them, thus leaving ordinary Germans to bear the burden.
That is on top of what are some of the highest electricity prices in Europe, which have already risen 44 percent since Merkel came to power seven years ago.
This is hardly the ceiling.
Faced with a scheme in which it seems almost impossible to lose money, German states, industrial giants and even enterprising individuals have all rushed to build wind turbines and solar panel farms.
Never mind 35 or 40 percent, at the current rate by 2020 more than half of Germany’s energy will be obtained from renewables – and all subsidized by the taxpayer.
“It's out of control,” summed up Kurt J. Lauk, Economic Council president from Angela Merkel’s own Christian Democrats party."

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

its still all about money i see.

 

[AndyH]

I would like to see a low power (1200w?) plug and play model for self install.
Grid tie is the issue to get around.

One is free to install a small battery-backed solar system that is wired into a separate electrical box. Transfer house circuits to the PV box (preferably ones that you'd like to have running even when the grid drops).

Sometimes a healthy side-step saves a bloody forehead and excessive use of tylenol.

What you need is an AC coupling unit. A grid-tie inverter will not produce power unless it sees a "utility grade" voltage and frequency, and an island inverter will not meet code requirements and may not appreciate / play well with utility power.

An AC coupling inverter integrates utility, battery and PV power into one unit. On one side you have utility power input, on the other you have the PV system and all the stuff you want to run on solar if the power goes out, and out the bottom you have your DC input/output to the battery system. It will let power flow through normally, keeping the batteries charged as well, but if utility power is lost it will use battery power to produce AC good enough to fool the PV system so that keeps operating at well. Power flows to and from the batteries as necessary until the utility power comes back. All the while it prevents power from going back out to the grid during an outage, satisfying code requirements. Fancier units will also turn the PV system on/off by adulterating the AC frequency (thus no longer fooling the grid-tie inverter) to prevent the batteries overcharging, so you don't need a separate battery management/diversion load system.

It's an absolutely brilliant setup IMHO. Have your grid-tie PV and eat it too, to turn a phrase!
=Smidge=

I'm assembling my off-grid solar power system in my living room while waiting for 'my' piece of land to show up.



The Outback inverter, a VFX3524, is an off-grid battery-based inverter - yet is has the ability to be FED from the grid to keep the battery charged if one wants. One can program hours during the day to connect, or battery state of charge, or other options.

The Outback GFX.../GTFX.... inverters are full grid-interactive and can charge a battery from or 'sell' power to the grid. If the grid goes down or falls out of spec, the inverter will disconnect yet continue to provide power from the battery.
http://www.outbackpower.com/pdf/archives/Grid-Tie_manual_7-1.pdf

As for 'bashing' Germany's power process, we in this country probably shouldn't. It works very well for them - and it can do the same here - especially if we adopt some of their efficiency habits. I'm finding as I transition off-grid that I'll save enough money each year making more efficient use of 30 cent/kWh energy that it's 'free' to disconnect from inefficient use of 13 cent/kWh juice. It's an absolute no brainer!

http://climatecrocks.com/?s=germany

Journalist Osha Gray Davidson explains the rapid growth of renewable energy in Germany, the roots of the German sustainability movement, why there is more market stability in renewable energy and what the United States can do to follow the German lead.

 

[Viktor]

Never mind 35 or 40 percent, at the current rate by 2020 more than half of Germany’s energy will be obtained from renewables – and all subsidized by the taxpayer.
“It's out of control,” summed up Kurt J. Lauk, Economic Council president from Angela Merkel’s own Christian Democrats party."

[/quote]
I would be more than happy to subsidize clean energy here instead of paying for 47 mln food stamps reciepients. How much more warning do U need - 68 degrees on December 2nd when I was putting Christmas lights outside in Colorado scared me enough to realize that our old way of doing things will not last much longer. Learn from smart Germans - thank God someone is thinking out there.

 

[AndyH]

I would like to see a low power (1200w?) plug and play model for self install.
Grid tie is the issue to get around.

http://www.solar-electric.com/prsy.html

1980W grid-tied package ready to hang on the wall: http://www.solar-electric.com/2wagrsoposy.html

Same thing in an 'off-grid' package (pull critical circuits from the house main breaker panel and move to this - no grid -tie hassle): http://www.solar-electric.com/1waofsoposyw.html

Just one quick example.

 

[surfingslovak]

I can see windmills but solar in Germany?.. its cloudy a large part of the time.. please leave our guns alone.

Herm, you raise some good points. I left Germany before the current policy framework was put in place, and I can't really make an educated comment about the state of affairs there. That said, I've heard that they had the largest solar deployment in terms of kWh produced worldwide. Again, can't speak to the veracity of that statement. However, you might enjoy watching this video, if you haven't seen it already:


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2hU17p2xjU[/youtube]

 

[AndyH]

Never mind 35 or 40 percent, at the current rate by 2020 more than half of Germany’s energy will be obtained from renewables – and all subsidized by the taxpayer.
“It's out of control,” summed up Kurt J. Lauk, Economic Council president from Angela Merkel’s own Christian Democrats party."

I would be more than happy to subsidize clean energy here instead of paying for 47 mln food stamps reciepients. How much more warning do U need - 68 degrees on December 2nd when I was putting Christmas lights outside in Colorado scared me enough to realize that our old way of doing things will not last much longer. Learn from smart Germans - thank God someone is thinking out there.

$47M is chump change - leave the food stamp recipients alone - especially in this economy. I'd rather have at least half of the $4+ billion we give to the fossil fuel industry each year for our green power program!

Ve haff schmart Germans using their noodles in this country, too, Ya! :lol:

 

[surfingslovak]

Ve haff schmart Germans using their noodles in this country, too, Ya! :lol:

Very funny. Reminds me of something Werner von Braun has famously said before: "Mr President, our Germans are better than their Germans!"

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

There will come a day when no amount of money will increase the flow of oil. Whine all you want about the high price of renewable energy, but it will ALWAYS be there

 

[surfingslovak]

There will come a day when no amount of money will increase the flow of oil. Whine all you want about the high price of renewable energy, but it will ALWAYS be there

Well stated, Dave.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

There will come a day when no amount of money will increase the flow of oil. Whine all you want about the high price of renewable energy, but it will ALWAYS be there

Well stated, Dave.

sadly, it is a well repeated saying of mine. it has been posted here a few times...

 

[Viktor]

$47M is chump change - leave the food stamp recipients alone - especially in this economy. I'd rather have at least half of the $4+ billion we give to the fossil fuel industry each year for our green power program!

Funny, not to argue for the sake of the arguing - but food stamp receipients - 47 mln receipients - at $6 + billions a month! at less than a 1$ per kwtt in the price of the solar panels - how long would it take to eliminate the need for the fossil fuel? anybody with the calculator? :shock:

 

[Viktor]

oops - look like 358 years based upon my calculations ))

 

[surfingslovak]

I'm getting about 50 years, based on 4 Trillion kWh annual electric energy consumption, 75% of which is fossil, and $1/kW solar installed.