The Battery Replacement Thread

[mwalsh]

If they have stopped making 24kWh packs here, the Japanese packs have to be going into the 24kWh cars being sold here, and I doubt they would start selling non-lizard packs here after finally developing them. I would expect that the Japanese packs have the lizard cells.

Well, that's what you'd hope, right? I guess we'll have to see.

 

[Newporttom]

By the way.... is there a capacity warranty on the new pack if done under warranty (not purchased)?

 

[bodengroden]

We did the software update a few years ago. We also have begun to use quick charging as just getting back from work has been a challenge. I'll take a look at leaf spy and see if I can get some data. It appears from the discussion that this data is not really relevant for Nissan to replace.

Three months to loose a bar.....

You won't be able to convince Nissan of anything with LeafSpy data, but it's tremendously helpful for your own benefit so you can estimate whether you'll make it in time. Also, it's invaluable with our car's diminished range to help you calculate just how far you can really go (GOM is worthless).

For example, if LeafSpy shows you at more than ~45 Ah you've probably got no shot at it. ~43 Ah and you're probably pretty close. How long ago did you drop to 9 bars? Where are you located? It may be worthwhile to take it in to the dealer no matter what with complaints about the range, as there are a few cases of people missing the warranty cut off but making a big fuss about it and getting a new battery anyway, and having a documented complaint about range was mentioned as something that may have been helpful in getting the replacement.

Ok, Just installed Leafspy. We are at AHr = 43.68. Graph on the first screen shows a dip at 4.08 and max at 4.11. Third screen show 42.36 Ah...190 GIDs 46.9 miles to 5%

Is there a indicator of what leads to 4th bar loss?

 

[Valdemar]

It is the AHr on this screen, I lost my 4th bar around 42.5 which is on the low-end. If you're at 43.68 you're probably at least couple of months away with colder temperatures.

 

[Stanton]

If they have stopped making 24kWh packs here, the Japanese packs have to be going into the 24kWh cars being sold here, and I doubt they would start selling non-lizard packs here after finally developing them. I would expect that the Japanese packs have the lizard cells.

Well, that's what you'd hope, right? I guess we'll have to see.

Based on everything that's been said in the last few posts, I'm thinking:
1) We are guaranteed "lizard" battery pack replacements
2) 24 kWh packs only come from Japan now (TN only does 30 kWh packs)
3) There is no US stock (currently) of 24 kWh replacement packs

So if a->b->c, from here on out we will all be waiting for "lizard" replacement battery packs to show up from Japan (unless they get smart and start stockpiling them).

 

[fooljoe]

Ok, Just installed Leafspy. We are at AHr = 43.68. Graph on the first screen shows a dip at 4.08 and max at 4.11. Third screen show 42.36 Ah...190 GIDs 46.9 miles to 5%

Is there a indicator of what leads to 4th bar loss?

I'm not that familiar with LeafSpy, but I don't think you should have two different Ah readings... If you can charge to 190 GIDs I assume 43.68 is the right one. If that's the case you've got a nailbiter on your hands. The reported range for the bar to drop is roughly 41.5-43.5 Ah, so if you're lucky you could lose it any day and if you're not that bar could hang on for months.

And keep it in a hot garage....

This is probably your best advice in the meantime.

 

[mwalsh]

By the way.... is there a capacity warranty on the new pack if done under warranty (not purchased)?

Not beyond the "new vehicle" warranties, no. So just the balance of 5/60 on capacity and 8/100 on materials and workmanship.

 

[Foschas]

By the way.... is there a capacity warranty on the new pack if done under warranty (not purchased)?

Nissan replacement part warranties are 12 months / 12,000 miles and do not stack with the original warranty or reset the warranty clock. So the warranty is 12/12 or your original warranty which ever is GREATER. In the case of a replacement EV battery for capacity degradation it would most likely be 12/12 as in most instances the vehicle would be at or near the end of its warranty.

On a side note I'm very impressed with the new 30 kWh pack capacity loss warranty of 96/100

http://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf/charging-range/battery/

Lithium-ion Battery Gradual Capacity Loss:
In addition to the Lithium-ion Battery Coverage for defects in materials or workmanship (96 months/100,000 miles), the Nissan LEAF® Lithium-ion battery is also warranted against capacity loss below nine bars of capacity as shown on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge for a period of 60 months or 60,000 miles with the 24kWh battery and 96 months or 100,000 miles with the 30kWh battery, whichever comes first. [*] See your Owner's Manual for tips on maximizing battery life and capacity.

 

[Valdemar]

On a side note I'm very impressed with the new 30 kWh pack capacity loss warranty of 96/100

http://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf/charging-range/battery/

Lithium-ion Battery Gradual Capacity Loss:
In addition to the Lithium-ion Battery Coverage for defects in materials or workmanship (96 months/100,000 miles), the Nissan LEAF® Lithium-ion battery is also warranted against capacity loss below nine bars of capacity as shown on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge for a period of 60 months or 60,000 miles with the 24kWh battery and 96 months or 100,000 miles with the 30kWh battery, whichever comes first. [*] See your Owner's Manual for tips on maximizing battery life and capacity.

I'm not going to be very impressed until I know what nine bars really mean.

 

[opencar]

No LEAF loaner, full blown pathfinder SUV making 19 mpg! I updated my sig to reflect the 4th bar loss.

On the bright side, maybe the long wait means that we'll get the packs "freshly made" instead of having packs that have sat around in a warehouse for a while, perhaps already experiencing some degradation. With the supposed chemistry improvements in the "lizard" packs I can't imagine why newly-produced batteries (if that's what they are) would be made any other way. But maybe that's all just wishful thinking...

Tomorrow it'll be 2 weeks that I've been waiting so far - no updates or news of any kind from Nissan or the dealer.

Opencar, did you get a Leaf loaner at least? I'd love to have a Leaf loaner - assuming it has a less degraded battery than mine of course - but would not want to be stuck with a gasser. And by the way, what was your Ah reading when you lost the 4th bar?

 

[dhanson865]

We did the software update a few years ago. We also have begun to use quick charging as just getting back from work has been a challenge. I'll take a look at leaf spy and see if I can get some data. It appears from the discussion that this data is not really relevant for Nissan to replace.

Three months to loose a bar.....

You won't be able to convince Nissan of anything with LeafSpy data, but it's tremendously helpful for your own benefit so you can estimate whether you'll make it in time. Also, it's invaluable with our car's diminished range to help you calculate just how far you can really go (GOM is worthless).

For example, if LeafSpy shows you at more than ~45 Ah you've probably got no shot at it. ~43 Ah and you're probably pretty close. How long ago did you drop to 9 bars? Where are you located? It may be worthwhile to take it in to the dealer no matter what with complaints about the range, as there are a few cases of people missing the warranty cut off but making a big fuss about it and getting a new battery anyway, and having a documented complaint about range was mentioned as something that may have been helpful in getting the replacement.

Ok, Just installed Leafspy. We are at AHr = 43.68.

Is there a indicator of what leads to 4th bar loss?

No here one knows exactly how the 4th bar is lost (I'm sure someone at Nissan knows but they aren't saying). Most here go by the Ahr on the first screen (with the 48 bars). I'm in the camp that thinks it is based on Hx.

It is possible it is based on more than one metric and we expect that it has some Hysteresis. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysteresis

We don't know how much hysteresis is involved. We have discussed time based, number of drive cycles, number of charge cycles, and even temperature limits for when a bar can or can't drop.

 

[GerryAZ]

If the bar losses are based upon AHr, then the 30 kWh battery can lose an extra 6 kWh of capacity to reach the same AHr value as a 24 kWh battery. That may be how Nissan can offer the 8-year, 100,000-mile capacity warranty.

By the way, the replacement battery for my 2011 (original chemistry from Japan) took several weeks to arrive. My dealer tested the battery one day and received authorization to replace it. I drove my car until they received the battery, dropped it off in the morning, and picked it up in the afternoon with its new battery. I don't understand why dealers want to keep the cars while the battery is being shipped and why they claim they need several days to install it.

Gerry

 

[fooljoe]

If the bar losses are based upon AHr, then the 30 kWh battery can lose an extra 6 kWh of capacity to reach the same AHr value as a 24 kWh battery. That may be how Nissan can offer the 8-year, 100,000-mile capacity warranty.

The only documentation Nissan has put out regarding the capacity bars indicate that they're based on % of new capacity (SOH), a relative measure rather than an absolute measure. Hopefully that holds true for the 30 kWh Leaf, but it certainly could be otherwise. Nissan could just be expecting the batteries to degrade more slowly because they're cycled less for the same amount of mileage.

By the way, the replacement battery for my 2011 (original chemistry from Japan) took several weeks to arrive. My dealer tested the battery one day and received authorization to replace it. I drove my car until they received the battery, dropped it off in the morning, and picked it up in the afternoon with its new battery. I don't understand why dealers want to keep the cars while the battery is being shipped and why they claim they need several days to install it.

How many weeks exactly? The dealer showed no interest in keeping my car while I wait - they just sent me on my way saying they'd call when it came in. However, I imagine that holding on to the car is standard practice because in the gas world people usually aren't bringing their cars in for repair unless something's broken enough to make the car unsafe to drive, and the wait for parts is never this long.

 

[mwalsh]

Sitting waiting at Tustin Nissan. Here's the skinny from MY service adviser. YMMV.

Inspection/verification - 1.5 hours with appointment (I'm waiting on my car).

I can keep the car until the new pack arrives.

Packs are still 2015 "Lizard" and are coming out of stocks in TN via truck freight.

Some people are still getting packs quickly, some are taking longer. According to my guy, the difference is the cold weather package - those without (like mine) can take longer than those with.

Hope this helps allay some of the fear. As always, I suggest verification of all these statements with your own dealer. I trust my guy and have no reason to doubt anything he's told me, but you know - if you can't dazzle them with diamonds...

Edit: All done in 1.75 hours (with a wait on getting the car washed). Warranty pack replacement approved. Service adviser is guessing 1-3 weeks for the pack to arrive.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Some people are still getting packs quickly, some are taking longer. According to my guy, the difference is the cold weather package - those without (like mine) can take longer than those with.

That seems odd. What difference does this have on the battery? Or was he actually referring to the replacement procedure?

Edit: Nevermind. I almost forgot that the cold weather package includes a battery heater. Duh.

 

[kolmstead]

Thank you for the report, Mike. Hopeful that I'll need that info soon.

After a week or so of cold weather recovery, my battery seems to be starting a very slow decline. 42.55 Ahr now; it was 42.43 a week ago. Odo went over 40k miles a couple of days ago.

-Karl

 

[TimLee]

... According to my guy, the difference is the cold weather package - those without (like mine) can take longer than those with. ...

Can you clarify whether the delay is getting a pack that does not have the battery heater, or whether the delay is for additional wiring harness to add battery heating to a 2011 that did not have it?

It would make more logistic sense for all the packs to be manufactured with the battery heater.
But even if that is what they are doing, why the delay for a 2011 without battery heater unless they are adding battery heating when they change the pack?

 

[mwalsh]

Can you clarify whether the delay is getting a pack that does not have the battery heater, or whether the delay is for additional wiring harness to add battery heating to a 2011 that did not have it?

It would make more logistic sense for all the packs to be manufactured with the battery heater.
But even if that is what they are doing, why the delay for a 2011 without battery heater unless they are adding battery heating when they change the pack?

Delay is in getting a pack that does not have the battery heater fitted.

You'd think it would simply be a matter of letting a certain number of packs pass by that part of the production process, but I'm sure the reality of manufacturing makes it more complicated than that.

 

[TimLee]

... Delay is in getting a pack that does not have the battery heater fitted.

You'd think it would simply be a matter of letting a certain number of packs pass by that part of the production process, but I'm sure the reality of manufacturing makes it more complicated than that.

Seems like it would be more cost effective to install packs with the heater and just leave it disconnected :?:

 

[Stanton]

Seems like it would be more cost effective to install packs with the heater and just leave it disconnected :?:

My thoughts exactly. Wonders never cease. :roll: