Tesla Supercharger Network

[GRA]

Just an update for redLEAF, who was asking about CHI-St. Augustine routes. There are SCs under construction in both Knoxville and Cincinnati, which will make an all SC direct route possible soon. Knoxville will probably open within the week, and Cincinnati perhaps in two when the new service center opens.

SC openings have slowed way down, and so far there's only been one official (Marathon) this month. However, several more are very close, and should open in the near future. Even so, even with 11 known now under construction, its clear that Tesla won't be getting anywhere near the 13.5 for the month they need to average for the rest of the year, to reach the 2015 total of 291.

 

[GRA]

As of 5/26/15, West Palm Beach, FL with 8 stalls (at the Service Center) is listed and mapped. Total U.S. SCs now 43/185/1,226. This site was completed March 21st, but lacked 24/7 access so Tesla didn't put it on their SC map. They've now moved fences to allow unrestricted access.

Current list showing all U.S. and Canadian SCs open as of 1/1/15 and subsequent, and full list showing all SCs open from 1/14, can be found here:

http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9111&start=810

Site with a map showing all SCs open, under construction or permitted plus lots of other stuff can be found here:

http://supercharge.info/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[GRA]

As of 5/28/15, Knoxville TN (first use 5/27) with 8 stalls, and Pendleton, OR with 8 stalls are listed and mapped. Total U.S. SCs now 43/187/1,242.

Current list showing all U.S. and Canadian SCs open as of 1/1/15 and subsequent, and full list showing all SCs open from 1/14, can be found here:

http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9111&start=810

Site with a map showing all SCs open, under construction or permitted plus lots of other stuff can be found here:

http://supercharge.info/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[GRA]

May summary: Only four SCs opened in the U.S., bringing the 2015 total to 43 instead of the 62.5 they should have opened by now if they were on track to meet their announced 2015 schedule. They keep falling further and further behind: They'd now have to average just under 15 SCs opened each month for the remainder of the year to meet the schedule, and they've never completed that many in any single month in the U.S., let alone averaged it.

 

[GRA]

As of 6/2/15, Tucumcari, NM (first use 4/21, but power quality issues) with 6 stalls is listed and mapped. Total U.S. SCs now 43/188/1,248.

Current list showing all U.S. and Canadian SCs open as of 1/1/15 and subsequent, and full list showing all SCs open from 1/14, can be found here:

http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9111&start=810

Site with a map showing all SCs open, under construction or permitted plus lots of other stuff can be found here:

http://supercharge.info/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[GRA]

As of 6/8/15, Cincinnati-Deer Park, OH (first use 6/5) with 8 stalls is listed and mapped. Total U.S. SCs now 43/189/1,256.

Current list showing all U.S. and Canadian SCs open as of 1/1/15 and subsequent, and full list showing all SCs open from 1/14, can be found here:

http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9111&start=810

Site with a map showing all SCs open, under construction or permitted plus lots of other stuff can be found here:

http://supercharge.info/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[palmermd]

The best upgrade to the Supercharger Network yet.....water cooled cables. They have started putting water cooled cables on the Superchargers to allow for the use of a much smaller cable that is easy to handle and insert into the car. Tesla just does not stop innovating.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The best upgrade to the Supercharger Network yet.....water cooled cables. They have started putting water cooled cables on the Superchargers to allow for the use of a much smaller cable that is easy to handle and insert into the car. Tesla just does not stop innovating.

My dad had water cooled welding cable 40 years ago.

 

[GRA]

The best upgrade to the Supercharger Network yet.....water cooled cables. They have started putting water cooled cables on the Superchargers to allow for the use of a much smaller cable that is easy to handle and insert into the car. Tesla just does not stop innovating.

You've got to wonder, though, how much this will boost capital, installation and maintenance costs, as well as how much it might limit site selection.

 

[RegGuheert]

The best upgrade to the Supercharger Network yet.....water cooled cables. They have started putting water cooled cables on the Superchargers to allow for the use of a much smaller cable that is easy to handle and insert into the car. Tesla just does not stop innovating.

You've got to wonder, though, how much this will boost capital, installation and maintenance costs, as well as how much it might limit site selection.

I cannot imagine it limits the site selection one bit. My Nissan LEAF has water-cooled parts and it does not need a source of water. Since water is much cheaper than copper, I expect this reduces cost rather than increases it. As far as maintenance, I expect a thicker, heavier and stiffer cable is harder on the interfaces (like the one near the handle) than a thinner, lighter and more flexible cable, thus reducing failures due to handling. And any repairs to any of these parts are likely much cheaper.

BTW, I don't recall you raising the same concern about the much-more-elaborate cooling systems needed for the nozzles on hydrogen filling stations. (If I missed your parallel comments on that topic, my apologies.)

 

[GRA]

The best upgrade to the Supercharger Network yet.....water cooled cables. They have started putting water cooled cables on the Superchargers to allow for the use of a much smaller cable that is easy to handle and insert into the car. Tesla just does not stop innovating.

You've got to wonder, though, how much this will boost capital, installation and maintenance costs, as well as how much it might limit site selection.

I cannot imagine it limits the site selection one bit. My Nissan LEAF has water-cooled parts and it does not need a source of water.

Depends on leakage and evaporation, I imagine, also potential freezing issues, how the water is circulated, etc. As for site selection, if you've got to have water nearby that's going to limit you, or else boost costs to bring it there. None of this is insoluble, just represents potential issues.

Since water is much cheaper than copper, I expect this reduces cost rather than increases it.

See above, we don't know and won't unless Tesla decides to tell us.

As far as maintenance, I expect a thicker, heavier and stiffer cable is harder on the interfaces (like the one near the handle) than a thinner, lighter and more flexible cable, thus reducing failures due to handling. And any repairs to any of these parts are likely much cheaper.

You make a good point about cable handling; a more flexible cable should be less subject to damage. As for repair costs, depends on the details as mentioned above.

BTW, I don't recall you raising the same concern about the much-more-elaborate cooling systems needed for the nozzles on hydrogen filling stations. (If I missed your parallel comments on that topic, my apologies.)

Because they appear to be required by the system, so why mention them? If, ultimately, that's what's needed to make H2 fueling work, then the only question is what's the final cost, is it affordable and sufficiently reliable?

OTOH, since we know the SCs work without water-cooled cables, it's no more than reasonable to ask if this makes them more or less likely to fail and raises (or lowers) the cost. If the H2 fueling situation were the same as is the case with the SCs, i.e. no cooling or cooling, I'd be posing the same questions re H2.

IOW, on balance is the improvement worth doing? Same as the question of whether or not PEVs need TMS or not; we know they can be built successfully either way, the question is whether the cost/benefit of a TMS is positive or negative. At the moment, to deal with continent-sized climate variation and areas with hot climates I believe the answer is yes, but that could change if we get a battery that can stand up better to heat, cold, cycling and calendar losses.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The coolant system will be a sealed, pressurized, closed loop.

The coolant will neither freeze, nor boil.

 

[RegGuheert]

Depends on leakage and evaporation, I imagine, also potential freezing issues, how the water is circulated, etc. As for site selection, if you've got to have water nearby that's going to limit you, or else boost costs to bring it there. None of this is insoluble, just represents potential issues.

None of those issues pose a problem for the water-cooling system in my LEAF. Why do you think they would pose a problem for Tesla, who also has water-cooled equipment installed in their vehicles?

Again, why you think there are siting issues related to this is beyond me.

See above, we don't know and won't unless Tesla decides to tell us.

No, but Tesla is in the business of making money. It's conceivable they would redesign their charging stations just for customer convenience at added cost, but I seriously doubt it.

Because they appear to be required by the system, so why mention them? If, ultimately, that's what's needed to make H2 fueling work, then the only question is what's the final cost, is it affordable and sufficiently reliable?

H2 refueling stations are not the least bit affordable, as we have pointed out repeatedly in the other thread. Yet you haven't made a peep about those excessive costs. But you are over here belly-aching about an upgrade Tesla is making on their own dime to their much more practical and affordable supercharger network.

IOW, on balance is the improvement worth doing?

Of course it is! Otherwise, they would not do it. It is known as a product improvement. On top of all that, customers love it:

The best upgrade to the Supercharger Network yet.....water cooled cables. They have started putting water cooled cables on the Superchargers to allow for the use of a much smaller cable that is easy to handle and insert into the car. Tesla just does not stop innovating.

 

[GRA]

Depends on leakage and evaporation, I imagine, also potential freezing issues, how the water is circulated, etc. As for site selection, if you've got to have water nearby that's going to limit you, or else boost costs to bring it there. None of this is insoluble, just represents potential issues.

None of those issues pose a problem for the water-cooling system in my LEAF. Why do you think they would pose a problem for Tesla, who also has water-cooled equipment installed in their vehicles?

Again, why you think there are siting issues related to this is beyond me.

Because it is an extra, inessential component that can fail. If it ain't there, it can't break. Doesn't mean it will, just that it can. As for siting issues, see my previous response - if the site has to have water to replenish the cooling system, that will limit the possible sites.

See above, we don't know and won't unless Tesla decides to tell us.

No, but Tesla is in the business of making money. It's conceivable they would redesign their charging stations just for customer convenience at added cost, but I seriously doubt it.

To date, and according to the CEO possibly for five years to come, Tesla is in the business of _losing_ money.

Because they appear to be required by the system, so why mention them? If, ultimately, that's what's needed to make H2 fueling work, then the only question is what's the final cost, is it affordable and sufficiently reliable?

H2 refueling stations are not the least bit affordable, as we have pointed out repeatedly in the other thread. Yet you haven't made a peep about those excessive costs. But you are over here belly-aching about an upgrade Tesla is making on their own dime to their much more practical and affordable supercharger network.

IOW, on balance is the improvement worth doing?

Of course it is! Otherwise, they would not do it. It is known as a product improvement. On top of all that, customers love it:

The best upgrade to the Supercharger Network yet.....water cooled cables. They have started putting water cooled cables on the Superchargers to allow for the use of a much smaller cable that is easy to handle and insert into the car. Tesla just does not stop innovating.

I'd appreciate it if you didn't mis-classify my raising possible issues as belly-aching. These strike me as potential issues, that's all - I wasn't putting any value on them either way; just curious if they will be pass the cost-benefit analysis. It's exactly the kind of thing I (and any competent designer) wonder about when _any_ working system adds components that aren't strictly necessary - is this a net gain or loss?

As to H2 fueling stations, we have no disagreement that they (and H2) aren't affordable now, in fact I've said repeatedly in that thread and elsewhere that unless the prices can be got down to equal or less than gas, H2 won't be a viable fuel. Why do you think I post all those links in the H2 topic to R&D aimed at doing just that? Where you get the idea that I believe that the cost isn't currently excessive, I have no idea.

 

[TonyWilliams]

- if the site has to have water to replenish the cooling system, that will limit the possible sites.

PLEASE STOP THIS CRAZY TALK.

THEY WONT BE REPLENISHING WATER !!! THE SITE DOES NOT NEED "WATER".

THE SUPERCHARG*RS ARE ALREADY LIQUID COOLED, SINCE DAY ONE.

 

[RegGuheert]

I'd appreciate it if you didn't mis-classify my raising possible issues as belly-aching. These strike me as potential issues, that's all - I wasn't putting any value on them either way; just curious if they will be pass the cost-benefit analysis. It's exactly the kind of thing I (and any competent designer) wonder about when _any_ working system adds components that aren't strictly necessary - is this a net gain or loss?

Sorry, but it is belly-aching. You're clearly hear to berate BEVs at any possible opportunity. Tesla makes a nice product improvement to their supercharger design and you raise concerns about reliability and siting(??). Yet, you have never made a peep about any reliability concerns you may have regarding the HIGH-POWER, MISSION-CRITICAL, REFRIGERATION SYSTEM required to compress H2 into FCEVs without the tank melting. Sorry, but this kind of posting is more than a bit disingenuous.

As to H2 fueling stations, we have no disagreement that they (and H2) aren't affordable now, in fact I've said repeatedly in that thread and elsewhere that unless the prices can be got down to equal or less than gas, H2 won't be a viable fuel. Why do you think I post all those links in the H2 topic to R&D aimed at doing just that? Where you get the idea that I believe that the cost isn't currently excessive, I have no idea.

The point is that when improvements are made to BEV technology, you disparage it. When improvements are made to H2 technology, you praise it. As has been pointed out many times your praise for H2 is misguided since there CAN NEVER BE A CROSSOVER POINT IN TERMS OF EFFICIENCY. I know you believe that convenience trumps efficiency, but that's only true when there is plenty of cheap energy sloshing around in the system. But we will not be there with renewable sources for many decades to come, if ever. In this case, efficiency (combined energy and resource efficiency) trumps everything.

Tesla just made a very nice product improvement to their supercharger network which will likely reduce overall costs and resource consumption while simultaneously providing the customer with a better experience and likely improving reliability and lowering servicing costs. You can try to drum up imagined downsides if you like, but don't expect your lopsided attacks on BEVs to go unchallenged in this BEV-focused forum.

 

[mbender]

Sorry, but it is belly-aching. You're clearly here to berate BEVs at any possible opportunity.
[...]
I know you believe that convenience trumps efficiency,

And actually, what could be more inconvenient than having to drive X miles just to get a fill-up? (Also to mention immediately losing X miles right off the top coming back from the station.)

Plus, arguably, having to wait 5-10 minutes at the pump might also be considered an inconvenience, even if the million-dollar station happens to be on one's way. With the superchargers, one can plug in and walk away... most likely for a nice meal, a little bit of exercise and rest for 3 hours of driving.

I just continue to fail to see the attraction or benefit of H2 for passenger vehicles, and I have tried.

On the flip side, I love seeing the growth of (and improvements to) Tesla's supercharger network. I just hope that one of these {time periods}, we'll see Nissan and/or other manufacturers join in and multiply its value many times over. But I'm not holding my breath. :-|

 

[GRA]

As of 6/10/15, Mountain View, CA (first use 6/9, the first with liquid-cooled cables) with 12 stalls is listed and mapped. Cailfornia now has 30 SCs (San Diego is also reported usable, but is not yet official). Total U.S. SCs now 43/190/1,268.

Current list showing all U.S. and Canadian SCs open as of 1/1/15 and subsequent, and full list showing all SCs open from 1/14, can be found here:

http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9111&start=810

Site with a map showing all SCs open, under construction or permitted plus lots of other stuff can be found here:

http://supercharge.info/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[GRA]

- if the site has to have water to replenish the cooling system, that will limit the possible sites.

PLEASE STOP THIS CRAZY TALK.

THEY WONT BE REPLENISHING WATER !!! THE SITE DOES NOT NEED "WATER".

THE SUPERCHARG*RS ARE ALREADY LIQUID COOLED, SINCE DAY ONE.

Thanks for the details. There's also starting to be more detailed info over on TMC. It appears that there are now vents for a heat exchanger located at the bottom of the pedestal, and someone (not me) wondered whether they'd now have to be regularly cleaning vents like on some CHAdeMO chargers. If so, I wonder who would be responsible for cleaning them? Site owner? Tesla?

On TC a link has also been provided to a water-cooled cable made by at least one company. It appears that the cooling water (at least from that company's cables) runs in the center of the cable, rather than around it. Here's one quote from a post discussing the new SCs on TMC:

"The coolant goes through the cable itself. The connector housing is the same one used for the HPWC (per my discussion with one of the design engineers who was answering questions), so the cooling does not extend into it. Just to the end of the cable.

"BTW, he had no idea how quickly the new cabling would be rolled out to other new or existing sites. Clearly they are watching how the set up performs quite closely. In fact there was a group of engineers with laptops hiding in the enclosure by the supercharger cabinets monitoring all the charging that was going on in real time."

Good to see them doing follow-up, just to make sure things work in the real world. It helps that this site is so close to HQ, but they'll need to get some installed in a variety of climates and monitor them closely. Assuming they use a circulating pump, I'd be interested to know if they use the same or a separate pump to circulate the cable-cooling liquid as the SC electronics (BTW, do you know if it's just water, or is there some anti-freeze component also), and did they need to add any fans?

 

[AlanSqB]

PLEASE STOP THIS CRAZY TALK

It a moot point anyway because Musk announced today they are shutting down all the SuperChargers because somebody was using them too much.