should I get a leaf?

[Rmasu]

Hi,
I've been reading this forum for a few months now and test drove a 2012 leaf last week. I like the way the car drives and feels etc. My main concern in the range. I'd like to give a detailed description of my daily commute and see what real owners think.

My Drive starts from my house at the top of a big hill. The elevation is 1100ft and quickly goes down to sea level after only 1.5 miles.
From there I enter the freeway which is normally stop and go traffic for about 5 miles, speed ranges from 0-15 or 20 mph. There are only slight hills with elevation changes of no more than 50-60 ft. After those 5 miles I pick up speed to about 55-60 for the next 10.5 miles. Again no elevation changes. Then I start to climb a long uphill grade from sea level to 1100ft over the next 12miles. Speed is again about 55-65.
I am in Honolulu Hawaii so the weather is warm all year around. Cold mornings are about 65-72 and days are about 79-82 summer does not get past 90. Humidity is pretty high so I would like to keep the Climate control on all the time.

My return trip (with no charging at office) is of course the opposite but PM traffic is different.
I cruise down hill from 1100ft to sea level at 60-65 mph over the first 12 miles, then the road flattens and I can continue for about 6.6 miles at the same speed, until I hit traffic. The traffic is heavy stop and go speeds from 0-15. That goes on for about 10.5 miles, then I hit the bottom of my hill and start the 1.5 mile climb 1100Ft to my house. My distances are a little off trying to figure out where the traffic stops and starts but my actual distance is 28 miles one way.
So my question is not so much can it be done, as after reading the multiple posts about ranges I know it can be done. But at what comfort level, being the AC must be on all the time and with the speeds and elevation changes.
I don't want to have a car that is on the brink of empty when I make my daily commute. I drive pretty normally not tailgating or zipping around other cars.
And with inevitable battery degradation I don't want to have a car that cant even make the trip comfortably in a couple of years.
Also, if there is a holiday or the university is on break speeds are about 60 mph both ways with little to no traffic.
I plan to lease the car 3 years if that makes any difference on opinion.
Thanks in advance for any input on my buying/leasing decision.
Thanks

 

[TonyWilliams]

Where are you? Ok, I see Hawaii.

It's too late for me to try and get all that data in a quick, easy format. Hopefully, somebody will soon

 

[surfingslovak]

Where are you? Ok, I see Hawaii.

It's too late for me to try and get all that data in a quick, easy format. Hopefully, somebody will soon

It's too late for me as well, but a back-of-the-napkin calculation gives me a range of about 59 miles. This is pretty close to what you need, but you would arrive home on the edge of the low battery warning. I assumed 3.8 miles/kWh overall energy economy given that you would run A/C all the time, and the roads might be wet from the occasional shower. It could be worth checking with local Leaf owners if this was a realistic figure. There are a few of them on this forum.

 

[garsh]

Why not borrow one for a test drive, and actually drive the route?

 

[planet4ever]

56 miles in a mild to warm climate? I don't think it should be a problem. In my opinion, stop and go traffic on the freeway isn't as hard on the battery as stop ... wait ... go for unsynchronized traffic signals. You can often change the freeway stop into a slowdown, and you can always change the "go" to a very gentle acceleration. Your speeds are moderate, so you should be able to get 4 m/kWh fairly easily except up the mountains. In effect you are going over two 1100 foot passes, but that should cost you less than ten miles. (Tony's table would say no more than 1.6kWh.) You might want to come up with a technique like DaveinOlyWA uses to charge to about 90% at night so you can take advantage of the regen at the start of your trip.

You didn't say anything about your speed, or the road and traffic conditions, going up the "big hill" to your home. Would you be able to take it slowly if you were running short? Is it a winding road you have to take slowly anyway? No worries if you haven't gotten LBW before you start up the hill, and I expect you won't. But even if you have, you could make it by taking the hill at 30 mph. So it might cost you an extra 90 seconds getting home. Who cares?

With no really hot weather, no cold weather, and no time at 100%, I don't think your battery is going to lose much capacity in the first three years. So your lease strategy should be safe.

Ray

 

[coqui]

Should be ok, especially in such lovely weather Charge to 80% night before, then in the morning on the way down you'll get close to 100% by the time you're at the bottom of the hill.

And again hypermile at the end of the workday and get as much charge as possible going downhill before climbing your hill toward home.

With gas prices as they are in Hawaii I would think this'd save you a whole heck of a lot of $.

Just to make absolutely SURE...do as the others have suggested on here and tell the dealer you need to make an actual route test drive. Tell him/her you won't lease the vehicle until you do it. Use the (included) level 1 charger the night before and make the drive as suggested above.

 

[lpickup]

It's too late for me as well, but a back-of-the-napkin calculation gives me a range of about 59 miles. This is pretty close to what you need, but you would arrive home on the edge of the low battery warning. I assumed 3.8 miles/kWh overall energy economy given that you would run A/C all the time, and the roads might be wet from the occasional shower. It could be worth checking with local Leaf owners if this was a realistic figure. There are a few of them on this forum.

So 3.8 mi/kWh -> 59 miles means you started out with a 15.5 kWh charge? Maybe it was a bit late, but somehow your numbers don't add up to me.

Starting from the other direction, it's a 56 mile commute, and assuming even 22 kWh capacity, as long as you could achieve 2.5 mi/kWh it would be safe, and while I don't have experience driving up and down huge elevation changes, I will say that driving on the highway with the heater blaring I don't seem to be able to do any worse than 3.7 or 3.8.

So I think you've got plenty of margin and could probably do this commute starting with an 80% charge, so as to take advantage of an awesome re-gen opportunity at the beginning of your day.

Here are some points that strengthen my point:

1) AC is fairly gentle on power use. We all have different tastes, but Hawaii is fairly temperate anyway (as you say, it never goes above 90). It's been close to 90 here already and I find 73F to be a comfortable setting on my thermostat. Power draw in that case was between 0.5 and 1 kW, meaning at 3.8 mi/kWh you'd only lose about 2-4 miles of range for each hour of driving. Pre-cool while plugged in to get over the big hump at the beginning as it gets the car down to temp.

2) As Ray said, you're not likely to experience significant (maybe not even noticable) degradation in a 3-year time period.

3) Even if you decide to keep the car after 3 years, is there any chance that charging will be available at your destination? A 120V outlet would be plenty to give you additional margin to hedge against future battery degradation.

 

[SmilingWhenSailing]

Hi Rmasu

You could try this webservice:
http://www.jurassictest.ch/GR/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is based on google maps and should calculate elevations into the equation of energy use. I think it has been a master project at a university in Switzerland. You can choose between 4 electric cars to calculate the profile. Whe you klick "details" you can adjust accessory energy use etc.
For my use in northern Norway it has proven to be quite accurate (though it doesn't count elevations over bridges and underwater tunnels or lack of elevation because of tunnels which should not be of concern to you.)
I bought our Leaf without ever testdriving one, actually without ever seeing one in real life. Nor have I ever tried another electric car before. The reason was that the nearest Leaf dealer is 1000 km away (Soon only 500 km). But I have been looking for more than 6 years and waiting for an affordable electric car to come to the market with enough room for the family. For me the Leaf is the perfect fit, but my daily commute is only between 20 and 40 miles, no problem at all even in the winter temperatures we have here with the heater going. I just changed to 80% charging (and I only charge at work).

In the end I would rent/loan a Leaf and test it for a few days just to be sure, since you live on Honolulu and the distances are comparably small it should not be a problem to get hands on a Leaf for a day or two to test your routines.

Good luck

Matti

 

[surfingslovak]

It's too late for me as well, but a back-of-the-napkin calculation gives me a range of about 59 miles. This is pretty close to what you need, but you would arrive home on the edge of the low battery warning. I assumed 3.8 miles/kWh overall energy economy given that you would run A/C all the time, and the roads might be wet from the occasional shower. It could be worth checking with local Leaf owners if this was a realistic figure. There are a few of them on this forum.

So 3.8 mi/kWh -> 59 miles means you started out with a 15.5 kWh charge? Maybe it was a bit late, but somehow your numbers don't add up to me.

Starting from the other direction, it's a 56 mile commute, and assuming even 22 kWh capacity, as long as you could achieve 2.5 mi/kWh it would be safe, and while I don't have experience driving up and down huge elevation changes, I will say that driving on the highway with the heater blaring I don't seem to be able to do any worse than 3.7 or 3.8.

Lance, thanks for your comment, I'm not going to critique what you said above, only supply some rationale for the rough estimate I provided last night. That being said, I tried the thesis project Matti recommended as well, and while I love the idea and attention to detail, I'm getting slightly unrealistic data when I enter the course I usually use for my range tests. I would like to customize some of the parameters, such as maximum speed, and find it difficult to do, but perhaps it's possible.

Anyway, back to my rough estimate. I agree that it would be good to start on an 80% charge. However, the downhill will not provide enough energy to get the OP through the day. During my testing I have typically achieved 65 miles total range in moderate city driving with very little freeway and no accessories on an 80% charge. Note that I typically drove the car to turtle, which is what we don't want in this case. Since the OP needs 56 miles and does not want to cut it close, something like a 90% charge would be indicated, but since this is not easily achievable, I assumed 100% charge and subsequently no regen on the first hill. I also assumed no charging of any kind at the destination.

I assumed 21 kWh battery capacity on a full charge, and subtracted 3.3 kWh to keep the OP above the low battery warning. Then I subtracted 1.5 kWh (1 bar) for the hill with no regen and 0.75 kWh (0.5 bar) for the second hill with regen. The 3.8 kWh is based on anecdotal data from a friend who drives on flat roads at similar speeds the OP would like to see and always runs A/C as well. This was then adjusted for higher rolling resistance due to wet roads. In my experience, this is often the case in Hawaii, and we would not want the OP to run low just because it rained one day. I did not find a good way to account for the stop-and-go traffic, which should not be a problem, except that the OP would be running AC on top of the base load of the car (0.5 kW). Depending on how slow this traffic is and how much time is spent there, up to 1 or 1.5 kWh could be lost. There should be enough reserve for this, and perhaps some energy is conserved due to the low speed, which led me to ignore this aspect of the commute.

 

[PatricioEV]

I have a very similar commute in Austin Texas (albeit shorter - 38 miles rt) and I could do my commute twice without recharging. I have a very steep downhill drive on the way to work and same uphill on the way home. I also have several miles of twisting, rising and falling at ~50mph (makes the commute MUCH more fun!) Granted, I don't know the elevation change, but it pops your ears both ways. I have the same bits of stop and go along with several miles at 60-70mph. Even with AC on full blast (or heat in winter), I have ABSOLUTELY no problem with range. I end up with plenty of range when I get home if I need to run errands or go out to eat, etc without topping off the charge.

Having said that, my uphill commute is not nearly as long as yours.. I would ask the local dealer if you could borrow a Leaf overnight if that would set your mind at ease. I personally think you'd be fine and any anxiety would go away after no more than a week of Leaf ownership, but then I've owned an EV before, so range anxiety was NEVER an issue for me when we purchased ours.

 

[lpickup]

Since the OP needs 56 miles and does not want to cut it close, something like a 90% charge would be indicated, but since this is not easily achievable

True, but there are people that are effectively doing this by timing a pre-heat/cool for a certain amount of time before they leave to slightly raise the SOC%. In general, it might seem a bit wasteful, but if you need to pre-cool anyway, it could be workable. I bet the OP could work out a fairly reliable time to pre-cool that resulted in getting close to high 90%-ish SOC by the time they got down to the bottom of the hill.

So to sum up your calculations, the 3.8 mi/kWh is BEFORE subtracting for elevation, wet roads and AC use. I think that would definitely be doable.

 

[sproqitman]

Your commute is similar to my wife's (other than the distance). She starts out with a 1000' downhill on local roads, followed by some freeway driving, finishing up with a 400' climb on local roads. Freeway speeds range from 60-65 down to stop-and-go. During July and August, when we finally got a chance to use the A/C, average was 3.9 miles/kWh. Of course, with the shorter distance, we have the option of charging to 80% and getting full regen on the trip down the hill. I'd suggest starting with 100% charge the first few trips, and then see if you can trim it back, based on how much is left in the tank when you get back home.

 

[Bassman]

I commute in Northern CA from 1500 feet to near sea level for 63 miles one way. Lots of up and down and an 8 mile stretch at 65 mph, the rest at 45 to 55 mph. I charge to 100% and charge at work. Using the heater (which burns way more battery than the AC), the worst mileage I've ever gotten was 60 miles/charge (That was in 20 degree temps and a strong headwind). Your commute should be a piece of cake at 100%, but 80% might require charging a little at work on 120 volt. I have 18,000 miles on my LEAF and the range is still about the same as in the beginning. In the Summer on the commute home, I typically get 78 miles of range til turltle mode. With Hawai's temps, your range would be close to my Summer range, so no problem.

 

[surfingslovak]

Since the OP needs 56 miles and does not want to cut it close, something like a 90% charge would be indicated, but since this is not easily achievable

So to sum up your calculations, the 3.8 mi/kWh is BEFORE subtracting for elevation, wet roads and AC use. I think that would definitely be doable.

Lance, yes, the 3.8 were for driving 60-65 mph on flat roads with AC and in wet conditions. The hills were accounted for by subtracting some energy from the pack, and they are not reflected in the energy economy. When we consider the number sproqitman just posted (3.9), which includes AC use and hills, but does not include wet roads, I think this is a realistic estimate overall. To sum it up, the OP should be fine on his or her commute, but might see the low battery warning on occasion, especially if it rained or there was a deviation from the usual route.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

You live in just about the perfect climate for the Leaf. You'll be seeing optimal battery core temps, optimal range and reliance on the electron sipping AC vs hungry heater. As far as being comfortable, the AC on the Leaf is amongst the most efficient I've ever seen. The AC's effect on range is so slight it's really no problem being left on. I'm driving up and down hills all the time, I live at the top of a ridge and get over 4 MPkW even in the winter with about 80 miles of range on a 100% charge. I don't know the exact cumulative change in elevation. If you are willing to be a bit conservative on acceleration, breaking and top speeds, you should have no problem. honestly it's a lot of fun to learn to drive this car efficiently. Ideally you'd charge to 80% at home, collect charge/regen on the way down and plug in and top off at work back to 80% and collect charge/regen on the way back down again. Even plugging in to a 110 outlet at work would give you lots of extra wiggle room for side trips.

 

[Rmasu]

Thank you so much for all the great comments and answers. I think from what I read and the recent answers on this forum I will go ahead and get a 2012 Leaf. Looking forward to it!
I'll probably just charge to 100% over night and not get any re-gen on the down hill from my house.
To answer one question asked, my trip up the hill to my house at 1100ft is only 1.5 miles and is a 20-30 mph winding road.
Thanks for all the input!

 

[lpickup]

I'll probably just charge to 100% over night and not get any re-gen on the down hill from my house.

At least try a descent one time at 80% charge and let us know what you're at when you get to the bottom of the hill (i.e. did you gain a bar?) That would be pretty interesting data!

 

[dgpcolorado]

Thank you so much for all the great comments and answers. I think from what I read and the recent answers on this forum I will go ahead and get a 2012 Leaf. Looking forward to it!
I'll probably just charge to 100% over night and not get any re-gen on the down hill from my house.
To answer one question asked, my trip up the hill to my house at 1100ft is only 1.5 miles and is a 20-30 mph winding road.
Thanks for all the input!

Given the steep road and slow speeds, if you can arrange to charge to less than 100% it will help you somewhat with controlling speed. (I have a 1000 foot hill with hairpin turns to descend when I leave home.) The LEAF doesn't have "low gears" so either you have regenerative braking to help keep your speed under control or you have to use friction braking the whole way down. If you charge to 100% you would have to use friction brakes the whole way.

One way to charge to more than 80% and less than 100% is to charge using an "end-time-only" setting that is after you plan to leave home. (If you leave in the morning at 1100 feet elevation my guess is that you won't need precooling unless you park outside in the morning sun, so using that method to increase the battery charge won't be necessary.) By calibrating how long you charge before leaving home you can adjust your charge to ~85%, 90%, or whatever. Once you have a feel for how your commute goes at 100% you can calibrate your charge to less than that to get at least some regenerative braking when going down your hill.

Just a suggestion.

-kama'aina

 

[padamson1]

I'll probably just charge to 100% over night and not get any re-gen on the down hill from my house.

At least try a descent one time at 80% charge and let us know what you're at when you get to the bottom of the hill (i.e. did you gain a bar?) That would be pretty interesting data!

Data Point: I have a similar descent from my house (1000' often including ear pops) on the way to work, but I start with 1mi flat distance before the descent. When I start with 80% charge, regen shuts off fairly quickly on the downhill (you can tell by the double circles disappearing on the regen side of the meter) and I end up even (10 bars) at the bottom of the hill (~3mi from my house). I have a choice of high speed (nearly straight 50mph) and low speed (several hairpins 25-35mph) routes and the regen is active longer on the slower road but the result is the same.

Even if I have 50% charge I never gain anything when I get to the bottom of the hill, I always have the same number of bars that I started with. When I get one of Ingineer's LEAFScan meters I should be able to tell if I actually gain something with the more accurate SoC% reading, but I doubt it will be much.

 

[Rmasu]

Thanks again for all the advice.
So coming down my hill Wailale Nui Ridge at 100% in Eco wont slow the car down like I do in my Ice now in 2nd
Economically I really think it makes sense for me to get this car. I currently drive a 2008 Toyota Tundra that gets about 15 miles a gallon. I bought such a big truck because we do a bit of hauling on the weekends and camping trips with the kids, bikes etc. But gas prices in Hawaii are between 4.50 and 4.75 a gallon, my monthly gas bill is about 500-600 a month.
My lease I figure will be about 380 a month, insurance (corporate) is about 1200-1500 a year so total cost a month is 500 a month, and I get to write off some of it for business. Not saving a whole lot but I think of it like a free car to use and way less pollutants. Agreed?