Seeking Comments on a 2012 Leftover…

[FredinNY]

Like many of you here I’ve been anxiously waiting for the 2013 Leafs, and although I’d like to pull the trigger on one, I felt the need to first look into the possible deals that are out there on a 2012 leftover.

I live in New York, and I’ve never been a fan of leasing, so I plan on purchasing the car outright. However, like most of us who are “Living the American Dream”, there always seems to be a shortage of cash for things like a new car…so unfortunately price does matter. I was hoping to weigh the benefit of dollars saved on a 2012 leftover, to the Leafs 2013 model enhancements. I know it’s not an easy thing to do since opinions will vary widely on where the industry is going, and how long it will take to get there.

Earlier this week I check with a few dealers regarding a base model 2012 SV that they had in their inventory. The quote I received resulted in a savings of approximately $3,800 over a base model 2013 SV. To me, $3,800 is considered substantial enough savings to warrant consideration, but I don’t want to be penny-wise and pound foolish. I’m not certain how much more of a savings could be had on the 2012s. I would imagine that at some point they’ll just be returned to the mfg.

-My biggest reservation in all of this is the battery… I know there’s an 8 year / 100K mile warranty on these things, but I’d be losing a year on the warranty right off the bat, and depending when this particular car was manufactured, the battery may well be over a year and a half old. Do these batteries start to degrade while remaining idle, or does degradation begin only through the continuous depletion and recharging?

- If I install a Level 2 charger at my home, is there any real difference in charging times for the 2012 to the 2013?

- I don’t believe the nominal increase in range plays a deciding factor in my particular case…the primary purpose of the car is a second vehicle, plus both my wife and I are lucky enough to have round trip work commutes of less than 20 miles.

- I’m not familiar enough with the new Hybrid Heater in the 2013’s. Being in NY, it’s probably something I should be paying more attention to. Does anyone really know how effective it will be?

If I do make the decision to take a leftover, I may just bite the bullet, and at least move up to the SL Model.

Any comments you could provide are appreciated.
Thanks again for your input.

 

[dgpcolorado]

With regard to leasing versus purchasing, I purchased and wish I had leased. The technology is changing rapidly in the EV segment and the value of used LEAFs is low and dropping rapidly, so trading up to a more capable EV in a few years is not cost-effective. Also, when leasing any battery degradation worries become irrelevant. That said, on your specific questions:

• Battery Warranty. The 8 year/100k mile battery warranty is for defects only and battery capacity is specifically excluded. With the 2013 models there is a new capacity warranty for 70% capacity in five years or 60,000 miles. Nissan has said that they will extend this capacity warranty to 2011/2012 models as well, although it hasn't formally happened yet. It is unlikely that you will fall below the 70% threshold for a warranty fix in New York state. You will, however, experience some capacity loss during that time, so don't expect that your LEAF will retain the range it has when new, after several years.

Also, how much battery capacity the 2012 SV has lost while on the dealer lot depends on how they have charged it. If they have kept it at 100% the battery may have lost significant capacity. The only way to know for sure is to find someone with a "Gid" meter and test it (the dealer service personnel won't know). But for your short commute even if it is down to 90% or so, it shouldn't make much difference. Just be aware that the older car will have lost at least a bit of the new battery capacity.

• Charging times. The 2013 models with the charging option will have a 6 kW L2 charger, as well as the quick charging option. The 2012 SV has a 3.3 kW L2 charger and no QC. Whether this matters depends on your intended usage. For home charging it likely makes no difference since you can easily charge the car from empty to full in about six to seven hours with a 240 Volt charge station. Where it matters is if charging at Level 2 away from home. The time needed to charge a 2013 on L2 is much less, and that may make some longer trips more practical. Whether QC is a benefit depends on whether your area will eventually get some DCFC stations.

Given your intended use for short commutes, you would likely be happy with the slower charging 2012 SV. Be aware, however, that driving a LEAF can be very "habit-forming" and you may find yourself using it much more than you expected and perhaps wanting to take longer trips with it. But for 20 miles or less a day? Not a problem. You could even just charge at Level 1, 120 Volts 12 Amps, which is really slow (although L2 will allow much better preheating and you will find that a nice benefit in Winter where you live).

• Hybrid Heater. The new heater on the 2013 SV (but not on the base S model) is a big improvement because it is much more efficient than the 2012 heater and it gives almost instant heat. However, given your short commute you can use the old-style heater and make your drive, even in snow, without difficulty. And by preheating while plugged-in at home you can get into a warm car, which is a treat in Winter. You can also remotely preheat while at work even if the car isn't plugged-in. So, yes, the old style heater will work for you, although it will take a bit more electricity. I rarely need the heater because when dressed for Winter I find that the steering wheel and seat heaters, plus preheating, are sufficient to keep me comfortable. But that depends on one's personal comfort limits.

• SL model. The main difference between a 2012 SV and SL is the Quick Charge port and the rear camera, in addition to some other small details like fog lights. How much those are worth to you is up to you.


My 2¢. Other may have different views.

 

[smkettner]

2012 for a 20 mile commute is a great vehicle. Save your cash and lease it and enjoy.

 

[MatimalND]

I don't know the exact number you are getting but the savings should be much better then $3,xxx dollars. There is a 2012 SV in North Dakota for 25,900. You take your $7,500 off that and you are looking at $18,400. Below is a link to use for negotiating. I got a quote to ship from east cost to ND for a i-MiEV for $700 if the dealer doesn't want to work with you. There is a $8,000 rebate to the dealer right now on 2012's. I bought my 2012SL just because after factoring in my $7,500 was only $20,400 to buy. They only offer $10,500 off on the lease so not as good of a deal as buying if you plan to keep for a while. With only a 12 mile commute I can keep mine for 10+ years even at 50% battery I am good, just maybe a little cold.

http://www.gfnissan.com/searchnew.aspx?year=&make=Nissan&model=leaf&bodystyle=&price1=&price2=&hpForm=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Reddy]

Given the short commute, colder environment, and sensitivity to cost, I would buy used. The prices have dropped so much that a lightly used model will likely be $15-20K. I think the auction thread showed close to $15K. Also, make sure to figure in (or not) the $7500 tax credit. If you don't have that much liability or the vehicle is used, you don't get that money. That's one reason why used prices have dropped so much.

There are several folks on this board looking to upgrade to 2013 or Tesla and have posted for sales. To get the best price you will probably have to buy outside your area, maybe even (gasp) a 2 bar loser from AZ. You might make a winter trip down south and personally see some of these vehicles before buying and then hire a transport company to deliver it north. Depreciation is usually the worst in the first three years so waiting a few more months when the 2013 are really moving might give an even lower price.

Edit: If you do buy from a dealer, you should seriously consider whether you will ever need to charge at that dealership or another. Some dealerships don't allow non-customer charging, and in your area there are very limited charging options (other than at home).

Don't forget to evaluate you electricity prices. With such low mileage, it's probably not a big deal for you, but other folks with super high rates (<$0.25/kWh) and low gas prices can actually end up paying more to drive an EV than a high mpg ICE car.

Colder temps improve battery longevity, but reduce winter time range, even as low as 40-50 mi in NY and especially with snow. If you do buy one that has already lost a couple of bars, then you should reduce the range estimate by another 30%. I would imagine that a two year old Leaf in NY or similar colder than average environment would not see significant continued battery degradation, maybe 1-2%/yr. In ten years, you should expect no more than 30 mi winter range, maybe 50 mi summer. Maybe it's better than this, but plan for the lower numbers so you won't be disappointed.

Edit: Yes, all batteries degrade from the manufacturing date. Full batteries sitting unused on a dealers lot in the sun will degrade faster!!! For longevity, it's best to keep the battery around 40-50%, lower temps, slower charge/discharge, slower acceleration/deceleration, etc.

The 2013 heat pump reduces energy use in the moderate temp range (30-70 F). There is no improvement in really cold temps. Since no self-respecting northerner turns the heat on until the outside temps are below 40-50 F, you may not see much improvement.

There are dramatic differences between charging. L1=12A, 120V&20 hr (all models & years), L2=16A&8 hr (2011/12/13), 30A&4hr(2013) at 240 V, QC=100A, 480V These are approximates and at the wall and not necessarily energy into the battery (various losses and efficiencies). Also, unless both your car and L2 are capable of 30 A, you won't get the faster charging. For you, with a 20 mi commute, it doesn't make any difference since even 10 hrs on L1 should deliver 40 mi range. And if cost is an issue, then don't bother with L2 unless you find it too limiting. One disadvantage to L1 is that you cannot put more than 1.2 kW of heat into pre-warming. In very cold temps (<0 F) you may not be able to pre-warm enough to reach the 77 F pre-warm set point. Here's more L1 info: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=10776&p=247635#p247635

Also, I don't recommend a Leaf if you don't have a garage and the ability to charge/pre-warm, since you'd be missing the best benefit of the Leaf. Finally, look realistically at your average and max driving. If you want to leave town and do a Leaf road trip, you'll really want either the 6.6 kW charger (which the 2011/12 doesn't have) or the QC option. Since NY doesn't have any QC's, it may be years until the Chademo plug is available (or not at all if Combo plug standard finally takes off). For long drives, use the ICE and keep the Leaf for around town.

Given my situation (8 mi RT commute), I plan on keeping my 2011 for 20+ years because I think the battery will still have 30-40 mi of range at that time. I bought with that in mind and don't worry about depreciation. Should I have waited until some of these used vehicles were available? Maybe so. Did I pay too much? Probably. I could have gone with a 35 mph NEV, but couldn't find anybody to sell me one with the Li ion battery before the Leaf was announced. But if nobody bought/leased them new, then there wouldn't be any used EVs. Somebody had to step up and show the auto companies that EVs are a viable product.

As always, it's your life and you get to chose. No one product best fits for everyone or every situation and many products will be good enough for many situations. Let us know what you decide.

Reddy

 

[NYLEAF]

I'm going to have to vote "No" as far as a leftover 2012, especially in NY.

If I install a Level 2 charger at my home, is there any real difference in charging times for the 2012 to the 2013?

Yes. Assuming you buy a 32amp Level 2 station (available online from Home Depot, Lowes, Amazon, etc), the 2013 will charge in almost half the time that the 2012 would. I (foolishly) had a 16amp Level 2 station installed, since it was cheaper than a 32amp, and because 16amp is the max that a 2012 can charge at. I wish I had looked a bit into the future and opted for one of the slightly more expensive 32amp units.

I’m not familiar enough with the new Hybrid Heater in the 2013’s. Being in NY, it’s probably something I should be paying more attention to. Does anyone really know how effective it will be?

The heater in the 2012 is extremely inefficient. On a cold day here on Long Island, I've seen my heater sucking down nearly 6kW trying to heat the cabin. Remember, the battery only has about 21 kWh available to use. That's a LOT of power just to heat the car. The 2013 (SV and SL only) have a much more efficient heater, and that's probably my biggest complaint about my (2012) Leaf.

As far as getting a car that is equipped with a Quick Charge port, just know that the 2012 SV cannot possibly have one, but any trim of the 2013 could have one, if so optioned. Here in the Northeast, however, it's currently not clear when (or if) we will see QC stations available to use. I opted for a 2012 SL so that I could get the QC port, just in case they do start appearing in the area. However, it's a lot of extra money to spend for a "what if" kind of thing. Only you can decide if it's worth it for you.

 

[FredinNY]

Thanks for the help everyone!
I appreciate all the detailed information you provided

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

2012 for a 20 mile commute is a great vehicle. Save your cash and lease it and enjoy.

+1