S or SV, which to choose?

[IrvingHarlem]

The original question was, S or SV? I bought the 2013 Leaf S two months ago and think it's a wonderful car. If you're most concerned about the price don't get the SV. For a short local commute you won't miss the extra features. When it's above freezing I don't need the heater. But, even when it was 10 below zero I drove 65 miles with 15 to go. So, I think you can drive the car until the battery degenerates by half and blow all the heat you want and still be able to get 30 miles daily easily.

And that's why I didn't bother to pay extra for the charging package or 6.6 kw charger.

 

[TimLee]

So the short story is: Nissan took the legs out from under the "throwaway car" theory with the 5 yr/60k mile capacity warranty (at least for most of us). ...

The statement is simply inaccurate.
Nissan gave a 5 yr/60k 66.25% capacity warranty to attempt to clear the class action lawsuit and less than 20% of those with a LEAF will ever get any thing from it.
Only in Phoenix will most get something from it.
Even in Texas and other HOT areas people will only get something if they are driving more than 12,000 miles per year.

 

[davewill]

Just out of curiosity: why do you folks think that warranty replacement battery packs for current generation Leafs will be next-gen, as opposed to new current-gen packs...?

Because Nissan has said on this very forum that the new "hot" battery will be used for warranty replacements. In fact they also said that the warranty replacements that have already happened will still get the hot one when they become available.

 

[TomT]

Nissan has "said" many things that have never come to fruition... It remains to be seen what devil is brought with the details... I'm just a little jaded at this point...

Just out of curiosity: why do you folks think that warranty replacement battery packs for current generation Leafs will be next-gen, as opposed to new current-gen packs...?

Because Nissan has said on this very forum that the new "hot" battery will be used for warranty replacements. In fact they also said that the warranty replacements that have already happened will still get the hot one when they become available.

 

[dgpcolorado]

The statement is simply inaccurate.
Nissan gave a 5 yr/60k 66.25% capacity warranty to attempt to clear the class action lawsuit and less than 20% of those with a LEAF will ever get any thing from it.
Only in Phoenix will most get something from it.
Even in Texas and other HOT areas people will only get something if they are driving more than 12,000 miles per year.

Yes. In five years I figure to be in the 70% to 75% capacity range, with 38,000 miles on the car. No warranty replacement. My choices will be to sell the car, in case someone wants a LEAF with a 50 mile (and declining) warm weather range, or put in a new battery. At an unknown price and assuming that Nissan will sell me one (although I'm pretty sure they will by then).

Sure sounds as if the first gen LEAF is turning into a throwaway car, sad to say.

 

[BrockWI]

People keep mentioning a throw away car. I understand if we can't buy and replace the battery pack through nissan that that will be the case, but if it turns out they do sell replacement pack (which I think they will) or even if you can replace the pack with a "used" or "reconditioned" pack with more range than your current one then it isn't a throw away car.

I am sure someone has run the numbers but even if you throw away the car at 60k miles what was the true cost of ownership over 60k miles and how does that compare to a volt or plug in prius or pick you choice of other vehicles.

My rough numbers, even if we buy it after the lease and it does only go 60k it will still be cheaper at 60k per mile than our vw jetta TDI diesel and our toyota sienna van at even with both of them already over 140k miles and both of them are at the point where cost per mile is starting to creep back up which is why we looked at the leaf in the first place.

What is the typical life expectancy of a modern gasser? 150k or 200k? Isn't that in essence a throw away as well, just throw away longer? Cars aren't an investment, they are consumable. What matters is the cost of ownership over a given mileage. I understand the idea of building a car to only last 60k miles is crazy and a waste of resources, but I foresee us running ours much longer, even it it becomes the car we just run 30 miles before recharge.

To me a car is just a tool and having the right tool for the job is what it is all about. It was killing me to run a cold diesel for 3 miles to run the kids to a friends or pick them up 4 hours later. We do a LOT of that and this car is perfect for that and moves that hard cold starting, short mileage trips off the diesel or gasser to a vehicle that is fine running a few miles and sitting for a couple of hours and running a few miles again. And before people jump on me about biking, I typically bike to work, only about 2 miles one way and our kids bike a lot as well, but we live on a county highway and there is no way I am letting our 7 year old daughter ride 3 miles to a friends in the cold and rain/snow at night in the dark on a highway, again a perfect job for the leaf and will be for many years to come.

 

[dgpcolorado]

...I am sure someone has run the numbers but even if you throw away the car at 60k miles what was the true cost of ownership over 60k miles and how does that compare to a volt or plug in prius or pick you choice of other vehicles.

The numbers may work for you but I am paying much, much, MUCH more to drive electric than I would if I just kept driving the old ICE. Part of it is the fact that just buying a used car, and fixing it as needed, is vastly cheaper than buying a new car, never mind the hugely expensive LEAF. I was willing to pay the high price to be an early adopter because I've wanted to kick the oil habit for many years. But, cost effective? Not a chance!

...What is the typical life expectancy of a modern gasser? 150k or 200k? Isn't that in essence a throw away as well, just throw away longer?

200k is the bare minimum I would expect from any modern ICE car. The only reason I had to scrap my '86 VW Golf, then 25 years old with more than 230k miles on it, was because I hit a deer; I had planned to keep it another five years.

Cars aren't an investment, they are consumable. What matters is the cost of ownership over a given mileage. I understand the idea of building a car to only last 60k miles is crazy and a waste of resources, but I foresee us running ours much longer, even it it becomes the car we just run 30 miles before recharge...

This is my concern. It is just an unconscionable waste of resources to throw a car away after such a tiny mileage, regardless of how much gas it saved during that time. You may not be aware of it, but a Nissan spokesman told some early Leafers that Nissan hadn't planned on the cars' batteries needing replacement. Huh? I was flabbergasted!

That said, I do expect that they will do the right thing and make replacement batteries available eventually. And, since EVs have few (other) wear items, putting a new battery in an old car is almost like getting a new car.

 

[WetEV]

I am sure someone has run the numbers but even if you throw away the car at 60k miles what was the true cost of ownership over 60k miles and how does that compare to a volt or plug in prius or pick you choice of other vehicles.

That is about $0.50/mile just for depreciation. Roughly $30k car. Add $2000/year or $8000 total (@15k per year) for insurance and electricity. Some taxes, repairs and maintenance($1000 more). So call it $0.65 per mile total. This isn't out of reason, see:

http://newsroom.aaa.com/2013/04/cost-of-owning-and-operating-vehicle-in-u-s-increases-nearly-two-percent-according-to-aaas-2013-your-driving-costs-study/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Take a smaller new ICE. Total cost to run for 60k miles is about $30k, or somewhere around $0.50 (AAA gives $0.46) per mile TOTAL, depreciation, insurance, gasoline, taxes, etc. Of course, the ICE probably has substantial value as it is still worth a lot. The same car as a used car can be cheaper of course, until repairs start to increase. Cost for the next 60k miles might be closer to $0.35 per mile... Depending on repairs needed.

Without any tax advantages, the Leaf to only 60k miles is more expensive. With tax breaks, it is close.


In the PNW, where close to or more than 100k miles can be realistically expected, you might get down to abut $0.45 per mile total (assuming no replacement battery). The Impreza would be close to that over the same 100k miles. With tax rebates, of course, or a cheap replacement battery, the Leaf is cheaper. Even with tax rebates, I'm not sure you have a hope of driving a Leaf for the same cost as a good used car, at current prices.

Of course, the future is unknown. I don't know the price of gasoline 3 years from now, and you don't and I'll drop a boulder of salt on anyone that claims to. The cost of running an ICE, especially an older one, is very dependent on gasoline, insurance and repairs. The cost of replacing batteries is unknown. And then there is the whole question of value, and the questions of costs not included, such as air pollution, oil's political cost and climate change.

 

[BrockWI]

That sounds about right. I have ours estimated close to $.42 a mile if we buy it and run it to 60k, that is including the the tax break Nissan got on the lease.. Of course I have a bit of an advantage having utility rates at $.067/kwh. It's funny everyone mentions the PWN for a long battery life, I can't imagine upper mid west would be far off that? Although I suppose you don't have to deal with 2 feet of snow and -20F without wind chill once in a while

And yes I totally agree that buying a used econo gasser would be less expensive per mile but it isn't a fair comparison to the leaf, to be even close we would have to compare it to the volt or plug in prius or something else at least close to it's class and if new a new vehicle.

As to gas prices I totally agree that no one can know what they will do, but I would put really good money on it that it will go up faster than electricity rates.

 

[WetEV]

It's funny everyone mentions the PWN for a long battery life, I can't imagine upper mid west would be far off that? Although I suppose you don't have to deal with 2 feet of snow and -20F without wind chill once in a while

You are probably fairly close. The wiki battery life model gives the same life expectancy to Seattle and to Madison, WI.

http://electricvehiclewiki.com/Battery_Capacity_Loss#Battery_Aging_Model" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

In sum, is the S a good way to go, or are we really missing out without the SV? If we go S, should we get the charger package, or is the basic model ok?

Thanks in advance,

Todd

How soon do you want to do this? If you can wait a few more months, you might get more features for less money.

 

[AthLeaf]

Just so you go into this with full disclosure. You don't actually get a check from the government for $7500 when you file your taxes. It only reduces the taxes you owe by $7500. My income wasn't high enough & I already had enough deductions (kids) so that it only helped me get back about $1000 or so. Now, if you lease the car from Nissan they take the $7500 off the price as they can use all of it. You can then turn around and buy your car out of lease right away & own the car. That's what I wish someone had told me before I purchased.

I drive about 25k miles/year, so there's no lease that even comes close to covering my needs.

Wow, thats a big change. I thought this was a refundable tax credit (which I thought meant that we would get a check if the tax amount owed is less than the credit)?

 

[TimLee]

Just so you go into this with full disclosure. You don't actually get a check from the government for $7500 when you file your taxes. It only reduces the taxes you owe by $7500. My income wasn't high enough & I already had enough deductions (kids) so that it only helped me get back about $1000 or so. Now, if you lease the car from Nissan they take the $7500 off the price as they can use all of it. You can then turn around and buy your car out of lease right away & own the car. That's what I wish someone had told me before I purchased.

I drive about 25k miles/year, so there's no lease that even comes close to covering my needs.

Wow, thats a big change. I thought this was a refundable tax credit (which I thought meant that we would get a check if the tax amount owed is less than the credit)?

No, that's not how it works.
But don't feel too bad about it you certainly aren't the first and won't be the last with that misunderstanding. Part of why it is good that MNL is here to help clear up such misunderstandings.