MikeinPA
Well-known member
Contact your representatives and let them know your situation.
REALLY!!! $200 gas tax.
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Unfortunately, it has so far proved impossible. Also once they have enacted these GPS taxes, the temptation to use in bad ways will always be present. The battle will never end, better to prevent it in the 1st place than to try and keep it reasonable in perpetuity.
When you look at the fuel use tax, and when it was enacted, it shows the possibilities of a good system, easy to implement, takes little manpower to police. What has caused it to fall from favor is the unwillingness of the legislators to raise the tax rate to keep up with inflation and more efficient vehicles, not the tax concept itself. Translating the fuel tax concept to electric vehicle isn't hard, just there isn't the will to do so. The reason is simply that GPS taxing offers many more ways to tax than the fuel tax does.
You could meter the EVSE's and have the power utilities collect the tax, (yes people might "hack or charge off their own solar, but that is true with liquid fuel also, and is not a big problem). Right now my power company has me on a smart meter that transmits time and useage already over the powerlines. You could use the same system to have the EVSE's transmit their usage. Power rate for the EVSE would include "fuel tax". You could use the aforementioned Kwh through the OBC method, and commercial chargers could collect the tax on all their sales.
It isn't an unmanageable problem to collect the tax without an intrusive method that is ripe with abuse potential. It may be an unmanageable problem to prevent abuse from a GPS system once it is enacted.
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MikeinPA
Well-known member
Its worse than that--depending on the smart meter, they can actually see and identify individual loads. Your phone and internet providers have copious amounts of data on your daily activities, supermarkets can identify you even if you use cash, cameras on the roads are constantly aggregating movement information, telematics in you car are reporting precise location data, etc.
I still believe in our country, our people and a future with a good government. Call me old fashioned. Technology has opened a Pandora's box that has enabled all sorts of abuses--my opinion is that need to call these out for what they are. Charging EV owners too much is just bad government. Collecting and misusing (selling) information about citizens is bad government.
It is not that your approach to collecting the needed data wouldn't work, or be inefficient, it just that the only need for this approach is a government and society that does not collect and house private information safely. I would rather fix that then work around it.
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I see you as more an optimist and me as more a realist. I'd rather not give them the temptation then trust that we will elect responsible people to govern.
Yodrak
Well-known member
There is ample evidence to suggest that we do not always elect responsible people to govern. However there does not seem to be agreement on which elected people are the responsible or irresponsible ones.
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I think that is the right approach. There is a privacy bill in Congress now but it only covers private industry. Maybe we need to use this opportunity to add in government privacy. But it would easier to get this done at the state level.
Nekota
Well-known member
North Carolina EV fees are a single fee for all EV with no adjustment for miles driven nor weight. NC reasoning is for a constant revenue stream rather than a fee per mile as the COVID pandemic created a cash flow problem for DOT as the miles driven tax dropped with the drop in miles traveled. I would like to see a vehicle registration fee based on odometer reading, weight of vehicle and vehicle width. These are the primary factors that contribute to road damage and use. NCDOT has a $5 billion appropriations for transportation. Of this 75% comes from state and 25% from federal. Of the 75 percent from NC 47% is from gas (40.4 cent per gallon), 21% from DMV fees, 24% from title and registration fees and 8% from the general fund. So when some one says EV's don't pay for roads since they don't use gas it is much more likely EVs pay more due to higher costs on titles and sales taxes. The NC $140 fee is legislated to increase to $180 for 2024 and to $220 in July 2024. NC DOT has an EV Summit in May 2024 for public input.
Based on a 30mpg calculation the $140 represents 10,400 miles, $180 is 13,400 and $220 is 16,400 miles based on $0.013/mile gas equivalent tax. There is no thought or benefit given to the reduction in CO2 which is contributing to the destruction of highway infrastructure. I hope to be able to attend the upcoming EV summit and promote highway revenue from vehicle miles driven, weight and width. All these extra wide trucks on the secondary roads are causing significant road edge and shoulder damage.
Some of this is driven by politics with the NC governor being a democrat and the legislature having a supermajority of republicans (gerrymandering works!) The governor established a goal in 2018 to have 80,000 registered EV by 2025 and that goal was surpassed by Nov 2023. And now with the politicalization of EV I expect the EV fees to escalate beyond the $220.
wekebu
Member
A few days ago in the podcast for Clark Howard, a person wrote in saying their car insurance had gone up exponentially. They had not made a claim. Upon talking to their agent, the agent admitted that OnStar had been reporting they're driving habits. If I remember right they also mentioned that their LexusNexus report had many pages on their driving habits. Clark commented that he would not own a GM car at this point.
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This is a great discussion. I guess that's why I always go back to odometer based taxes. It the closest analog to fuel purchase based taxes.
Send in odometer reading at the end of the year with registration renewal, and the money for the taxes.
There will be a lot of people that will not save to pay those taxes, the same reason we have payroll deductions. And that will be a problem. But it's better than gps monitor for me
Send in odometer reading at the end of the year with registration renewal, and the money for the taxes.
There will be a lot of people that will not save to pay those taxes, the same reason we have payroll deductions. And that will be a problem. But it's better than gps monitor for me
Kwh based tax is the exact analog, but as I said earlier, the taxing bodies don't want to make an analog to what we have now for ICE vehicle they want to replace what ICE has now with GPS for everybody. This isn't an EV only issue, and I hope people pay attention, it will effect every one who drives a car, no matter how it is fueled.
Again, it opens up fee's for how,where and when you drive, where and when you park and complete record of your movements. This should be a concern for everybody. Having that info, it is just far too tempting to use it in ways, that they claim they will not. "We only "need" that info for road tax" yeah, well there are other ways that have worked for a century that don't involve tracking. Ask yourself why this is the only avenue being pursued, and it becomes clear they want the info, the tax is the reason given.
Crime fighting would be easy if we all wore ankle monitors, but I for one, am not will to accept an ankle monitor as a trade-off for "safety". This is what is being proposed.
Pay as you go, makes even the poor able to pay the tax, once a year, makes it hard to budget esp when the amount of use, and tax rate may vary widely. Anything short of pay as you go is going to be a nightmare to make functional.
I am sure the fuel retailers would prefer not to collect the tax, but have done so for a century. I know the power company would also prefer not to collect the tax, but they ARE a public utility, however, and for that monopoly, should be able to record and charge the tax.
Again, it opens up fee's for how,where and when you drive, where and when you park and complete record of your movements. This should be a concern for everybody. Having that info, it is just far too tempting to use it in ways, that they claim they will not. "We only "need" that info for road tax" yeah, well there are other ways that have worked for a century that don't involve tracking. Ask yourself why this is the only avenue being pursued, and it becomes clear they want the info, the tax is the reason given.
Crime fighting would be easy if we all wore ankle monitors, but I for one, am not will to accept an ankle monitor as a trade-off for "safety". This is what is being proposed.
Pay as you go, makes even the poor able to pay the tax, once a year, makes it hard to budget esp when the amount of use, and tax rate may vary widely. Anything short of pay as you go is going to be a nightmare to make functional.
I am sure the fuel retailers would prefer not to collect the tax, but have done so for a century. I know the power company would also prefer not to collect the tax, but they ARE a public utility, however, and for that monopoly, should be able to record and charge the tax.
MikeinPA
Well-known member
Starting in July, New Jersey EV owners must pay an annual $250 road tax fee in an effort to offset the state's loss in fuel tax revenue. The new fee will increase by $10 each of the next four years until it reaches $290 in 2028. To make matters worse, New Jersey requires buyers and leases of all new vehicles to pay four years of registration fees upfront and the new EV fee will be included in that initial payment. https://insideevs.com/features/714686/new-jersey-annual-ev-fee/
On the other hand, in NJ EVs are exempt from the state sales tax of 6.625%. Net win there. And then there is the up to $ 4000 incentive. More net winning.
marshallinwash
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I suspect they will increase the EV road tax and eliminate the purchase credit. They will probably start applying a road tax to hybrids too.
marshallinwash
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Well they can offer an option, verified odometer reading or a set annual fee. I think most folks would choose the fixed annual fee unless you drive very little.
marshallinwash
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Our gas tax is currently 77.22 cents a gallon, includes federal tax. It takes roughly 291 gallons of gas to equal the $225 we currently pay for the EV road tax.
So if you drive less then 7,275 miles you are paying more then someone driving a 25 mile/gallon car. So the EV tax rewards folks who drive more than 7,275 miles and hurts those who drive less, like me.
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Who are "they"?
Your state and federal government agencies charged with setting road taxation.
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I think you mean the legislature. I don't know a state where the legislature has given a executive branch agency the power to set gas tax rates, but if you know of one, I would like to know. I am sure the agencies give input on legislation, but they don't set the rates. This thread is making me think that we should see what the automobile associations (AAA, USAA, ect) stance on this is. I do know that AAA already collects odometer readings as part of insurance. I can't find the Electric Vehicle Association (myeva.org) stance on this topic.
So your position is that the agencies see a public benefit in using GPS data so they recommend legislation that would use this as a basis of taxation. I think we can agree that the potential for misuse is very high. And is very intrusive. Another poster said that better data privacy laws are the best answer. I would have to agree as I know my city of only 44,000 has traffic cams on every signal in town. So they can actually track any car movements tough our small city. I actually have gone to our tiny two seat traffic management center and seen how it works. So the GPS worries might be moot anyway.
I still like using odometer for EVs and Pump taxes for ICE. I can't think of how to have the electric company collect EV use taxes at my house as another poster has suggested. But I am always open to new ideas.
So your position is that the agencies see a public benefit in using GPS data so they recommend legislation that would use this as a basis of taxation. I think we can agree that the potential for misuse is very high. And is very intrusive. Another poster said that better data privacy laws are the best answer. I would have to agree as I know my city of only 44,000 has traffic cams on every signal in town. So they can actually track any car movements tough our small city. I actually have gone to our tiny two seat traffic management center and seen how it works. So the GPS worries might be moot anyway.
I still like using odometer for EVs and Pump taxes for ICE. I can't think of how to have the electric company collect EV use taxes at my house as another poster has suggested. But I am always open to new ideas.
I posted a few ideas earlier about using annual vehicle inspections as the time and place of collecting odometer readings for all cars. It still seems (to me) like using annual miles driven and vehicle size/weight would be the most equitable way to assess road use taxes across all vehicle types. It also allows the easiest adjustment over time if road maintenance costs increase.
Just curious: Are there states that don't do annual (or biennial, which could easily be adjusted to annual) inspections? Are there states that don't record the odometer reading when doing an inspection?
In every state I've lived in, there is already an administrative system in place that deals with these sorts of issues. I have to have proof of insurance to get my registration. I have to have my registration to get my inspection. The DMV knows that my family owns a Honda Fit and Nissan Leaf (i.e., size/weight), along with how many miles each car was driven in the past year. It's literally one additional step (determine the formula for the road use tax) and my annual bill could be in the mail tomorrow.
Just curious: Are there states that don't do annual (or biennial, which could easily be adjusted to annual) inspections? Are there states that don't record the odometer reading when doing an inspection?
In every state I've lived in, there is already an administrative system in place that deals with these sorts of issues. I have to have proof of insurance to get my registration. I have to have my registration to get my inspection. The DMV knows that my family owns a Honda Fit and Nissan Leaf (i.e., size/weight), along with how many miles each car was driven in the past year. It's literally one additional step (determine the formula for the road use tax) and my annual bill could be in the mail tomorrow.
Yodrak
Well-known member
In Missouri safety inspections are not required until a car is more than 10 years old or has traveled more than 150,000 miles. There is an option for biennial registration, which I select. So, my 2013 Leaf will have its first safety inspection when I renew the registration next year in 2025.
There is a separate emissions inspection required for every registration renewal, but BEVs are exempt from that requirement. I don't know about PHEVs.
