Public Electric Charging Stations

[jrhubott]

Since several cars will be capable of plug-in charging over the next several years it seems like we will find it difficult to charge when arriving at locations.

We will be sharing with the Volt and Plug-In Prius.

It seems to me it will be very hard to plan a trip that is outside of round trip range of the Leaf since availability of a charging station at your destination location will not be a sure thing.

 

[LEAFguy]

Since several cars will be capable of plug-in charging over the next several years it seems like we will find it difficult to charge when arriving at locations.

You will be able to use your smartphone to check EVSE status, and possibly CARWINGS in the LEAF.

 

[Norway]

Since several cars will be capable of plug-in charging over the next several years it seems like we will find it difficult to charge when arriving at locations.

We will be sharing with the Volt and Plug-In Prius.

It seems to me it will be very hard to plan a trip that is outside of round trip range of the Leaf since availability of a charging station at your destination location will not be a sure thing.

Hi,

In Oslo, Norway, we've got hundreds of free, public charging stations all over town. EVs can park for free in any public parking space (including all the non-charging ones).

Additionally, the city authorities pay up to $1500 to any company or housing association which puts up a charging station.

Other encouragements (which we've had for years!) are no sales tax or "licence plate duty" for EVs. This can be up to 200% (!) on the value of the vehicle for fossil-cars.

Also, EVs don't pay $600 road tax, and we can drive in the bus lanes!

 

[evnow]

Other encouragements (which we've had for years!) are no sales tax or "licence plate duty" for EVs. This can be up to 200% (!) on the value of the vehicle for fossil-cars.

If anyone tried that 200% here - there would be an armed rebellion :shock:

 

[Norway]

Other encouragements (which we've had for years!) are no sales tax or "licence plate duty" for EVs. This can be up to 200% (!) on the value of the vehicle for fossil-cars.

If anyone tried that 200% here - there would be an armed rebellion :shock:

In a poll in Norway recently, 70% of the population were in favor of increased taxes, as long as they were used for the public health and education systems.

(I don't want to make this a thread about Norway, but we have less than 3% unemployment, and for the whole country we had about 32 murders for the whole of last year. The system of government works very well.)

 

[chijayhawker]

Other encouragements (which we've had for years!) are no sales tax or "licence plate duty" for EVs. This can be up to 200% (!) on the value of the vehicle for fossil-cars.

If anyone tried that 200% here - there would be an armed rebellion :shock:

That's because in general Americans don't get it that their taxes go to pay for the military, fire departments, roads, schools, police departments and other public services. In general most Americans are quite selfish. They want those services but don't want to have to pay for them. After 30 years under Reagan-nomics, you'd think we get the idea that we need to raise taxes so that bridges won't fall and water mains won't burst every year during the winter and general failure of a lot of our public services.

Go Norway!

I'm happy to be in America and was at a very young age willing to defend it with my life, so I feel I get to criticize it when appropriate.

 

[walterbays]

In Oslo, Norway, we've got hundreds of free, public charging stations all over town. EVs can park for free in any public parking space (including all the non-charging ones).

I want to leave tax systems aside and come back to the subject of EV charging. This is a vital point, that if there are plenty of charging stations then we don't have to worry about whether they are occupied or free, how charging periods are scheduled and enforced, how quickly ICE cars parked at charging stations are towed, etc. You can be sure that a charging space will be available where you need it, or maybe in the next block.

I do worry how and whether the economics will work out. We will have lots of publicly funded charging stations, but not as many as Norway for the EV population. Especially as EV's roll out to states not in the initial program, charging stations will have to be profitable. The electricity cost of refueling will be negligible, and would never pay for the station. The value of the parking space for parking is probably higher. Yet if they charge more for recharging than the equivalent cost per gallon of gasoline, EV's will be set back immeasurably. One company (maybe ECOtality?) was talking about selling subscriptions for all-you-can-charge anywhere, any time. But for someone who does almost all charging at home, off-peak, the cost of that electricity would be much higher than the peak gasoline prices. There was an article yesterday about a company planning to sell targeted video advertisements on the charging stations. When you swipe your card at the shopping mall charging station the system knows who you are, your buying habits, what stores are nearby, what promotions they are running, and how much they have paid in advertising. Then it shows you ads specially designed to tempt you.

I don't know which of the funding models will win out in the US, but there has to be something workable for EV's to make a substantial impact on the overall car market.

 

[Norway]

I agree, although there is a small additional point too.

In most of Europe, the standard socket is 230V 16A, which yields 3.6 kW. Thus, 99% of electric vehicles just need a standard electricity socket to charge. There are "everywhere",

The next "step up" is three phase of the same current, which yields over 10 kW. These are very common in commercal premises. However, "all" EVs I've seen have 16A (single phase) chargers.

 

[garygid]

The EVSE "standards" that have been forced upon us here in the USA virtually "guarantee" an expensive additional level of electrical infrastructure, that is basically unnecessary.

Instead, we could do like UK and the EU, and use the EXISTING infrastructure, replacing some existing 240v outlets with "safety" EU-type sockets. Then, if much of the rest of the would can survive plug-in 240v EVSEs, there is no GOOD reason that we cannot do the same thing.

Yes, installing a new socket for added convenience, and adding some new breakers and circuits will be needed, but at only hundreds of dollars per station, not thousands.

Actually, I believe the "public" e-stations need much more QC capability, with only the occasional business-installed "slower" (L2) chargers to attract "end-point" (destination) charging.

There is little need for thousands of public L2 "chargers", because they just take too long to use.

Much less expensive to provide 3 240v sockets on one "post" for 3 sequential parallel-parking spaces, or perhaps 6 to 8 sockets on one "post" for 6 to 8 nose-in, dual-row parking spots. The EVSE's e-hose will reach the front of each car.

 

[smkettner]

There is little need for thousands of public L2 "chargers", because they just take too long to use.

I would tend to disagree. Seems like if you could plug in at virtually every stop the EV would never get low on charge and you could run errands all day.

If I was shopping at the mall I would prefer to just connect L2 and browse at my leasure rather than sit and wait up to 30minutes for 80% charge or turn it over to an attendent to move the vehicle when done to get the next in line started.

L3 would seem to be best utilized on a main highway between destinations. I also suspect the L3 will come at a higher cost per mile due to the more complex and expensive infrastructure.

 

[mitch672]

how about this:

"the EV project" is really only funded for the Western US states (and Tenessee/Washington,DC), by the time the EV rollout happens in the "rest" (the remaining 36 states), there probably won't be any "government bailout" money for any EV infrastructure, not to mention we will have a new president by 1/19/2013, who may not be "EV & Green" friendly (think: Bush & Big Oil), plus with the US Economy in the outhouse, and the national debt mounting, we really can't count on money being spent for public infrastructure, beyond the EV project...

we need to face facts, Public Infrastructure nationwide may never become a reality, most likely.

if a "business" can't make money on EV charging, then EV's are not going to be too popular in the rest of the country, and will be relegated to "commuter vehicles" only, where the owners can never really go beyond what their range is, that they can charge at home or work with.

 

[evnow]

"the EV project" is really only funded for the Western US states (and Tenessee/Washington,DC), by the time the EV rollout happens in the "rest" (the remaining 36 states), there probably won't be any "government bailout" money for any EV infrastructure,

There is always lot of money for companies - you just need to know how to ask. Heck we pay $6B a year down the ethonol hole.

There just isn't any money for common folk.

not to mention we will have a new president by 1/19/2013...

Extremely unlikely - unless we get into a deeper 2nd dip. Even then, the more people see of SP, the more they will want nothing to do with her. They will hold their noses and vote for Obama, like they did in 2008.

 

[mitch672]

"the EV project" is really only funded for the Western US states (and Tenessee/Washington,DC), by the time the EV rollout happens in the "rest" (the remaining 36 states), there probably won't be any "government bailout" money for any EV infrastructure,

There is always lot of money for companies - you just need to know how to ask. Heck we pay $6B a year down the ethonol hole.

There just isn't any money for common folk.

not to mention we will have a new president by 1/19/2013...

Extremely unlikely - unless we get into a deeper 2nd dip. Even then, the more people see of SP, the more they will want nothing to do with her. They will hold their noses and vote for Obama, like they did in 2008.

Who said it would be Sarah Palin? I think the republicans (or it may even be the democratic party) can come up with a better candidate than Obama. Sad to say, we are going to see a long run of 1 term presidents, for the forseeable future.

 

[evnow]

This is getting ot. Back on topic.

We should probably start a speculative thread in the politics sub-forum ...

 

[ttweed]

One company (maybe ECOtality?) was talking about selling subscriptions for all-you-can-charge anywhere, any time.

It doesn't appear that Ecotality has landed on any particular plan for charging people to use the public infrastructure. From their residential participant agreement for SDG&E customers:
"It is fully expected that there will be a fee charged for the use of the publicly available EVSE. However, EV Project Participants will be allowed to use the Project's publicly available charge infrastructure at no cost until at least May 2011. Subsequently, Participants and all other EV drivers may elect to purchase subscriptions, memberships or pre-paid cards to continue to take advantage of the publicly available charge infrastructure."

Once they do start making you pay for it, I would just as soon have an ID card (or something) that I swiped at the charging station and the power I used for the EV charging would be added to my monthly bill in a separate category for "Public" (separate from my home usage).

TT

 

[planet4ever]

There is little need for thousands of public L2 "chargers", because they just take too long to use.

I would tend to disagree. Seems like if you could plug in at virtually every stop the EV would never get low on charge and you could run errands all day.

If I was shopping at the mall I would prefer to just connect L2 and browse at my leasure rather than sit and wait up to 30minutes for 80% charge or turn it over to an attendent to move the vehicle when done to get the next in line started.

sm makes a great point here, that I think needs to be repeated. Even being a bit conservative, and assuming 80 miles on 8 hours of L2 charging, you only need 6 minutes of juice to go one mile. If you can add 2 1/2 miles to your range every time you pop into a store for 15 minutes, the wife can indeed spend the whole day shopping with no range worries at all. Even if you live 30 or 40 miles out in the boonies.

 

[garygid]

Yes, but if it costs you $5 or $10 every time you "Plug In" for charging, brief or not, you will not do "mini-e-fueling".

Also, the charges will probably show up on your "credit" card, not on your PU bill.

 

[SeattleBlueLeaf]

Yes, but if it costs you $5 or $10 every time you "Plug In" for charging, brief or not, you will not do "mini-e-fueling".

Also, the charges will probably show up on your "credit" card, not on your PU bill.

I think we are going to see a wide range of business models around charging. Just a couple of guesses here:
1) I think we will see some locations like malls & warehouse stores that have free charging (or nearly free) - maybe free charging with a minimum purchase at the retail location.
2) Some charge locations will be in "destinations" - think places like beaches, parks, sports stadiums, entertainment venues. I think these locations will have parking lots with charge stations and some added cost. I'd think $5 to $10 sounds high.. at least for those of us used to spending .10 cents a kWh.
3) Finally - street charge locations in the form of premium parking where you pay for the street parking spot and the energy in a single charge.

Thoughts?

 

[evnow]

3) Finally - street charge locations in the form of premium parking where you pay for the street parking spot and the energy in a single charge.

I think this will be the norm. A high fee in the beginning is the best way to kill the charger business.

 

[charlie1300]

Public charging infrastructure probably is not necessary to make EVs successful . Given current costs for QC stations and the low number of EV owners in most geographic areas, I can't see how a commercial operator can get an acceptable return on investment. I will speculate that Nissan dropped the L3 charger into the optional category partially in recognition of the lack of QC stations in the near future, except where they already have government money commitments in hand.

There is plenty of market space for a commuter car that is environmentally sound and less expensive to operate. The price of gasoline is only going in one direction, long term. That's what will sell millions of EVs.