Pros and Cons: CNG vehicle ownership vs Nissan Leaf ??

[Adrian]

I think prices at the public fueling stations for CNG in UT and OK are low enough that the driving costs should be about equal to the Leaf. The dry lubricated Fuelmaker units don't have oil, so no oil-carryover issues which lead to more frequent maintenance (expensive high and low pressure filter changes).

Your 2008 doesn't have a low pressure fuel filter (2001 and newer), only the high which is practically useless (between cig and cigar size). That's great you can fill at home because like I said earlier there are stations that are 'dirty'. Those home fueling stations are only good for a certain amount of fills and then something expensive in them has to be replaced.
Even with the a little over a dollar prices in UT and OK, the LEAF is still less expensive to drive just comparing the fuel prices. I drive for free, but even at .07-.12/kW h a LEAF would still be less expensive to drive. Now add all the maintenance you'll have with the CNG cars, and there's just no comparison. And even though it's the cleanest burning ICE in the world, it isn't cleaner than a LEAF charged with PVs or other renewables.

My 2008 has both a low and high pressure filter. I also have a 2000 GX, which you're correct, does not have the low pressure filter. And yes, The Leaf is cheaper to drive even leaving maintenance out of the equation. Unfortunately my wife's commute is 95 miles round trip, with no possibility of EV charging at work, so the Civic GX gives her access to the car pool lane, has less emissions than a diesel or gasoline car and costs me about $1/GGE with home fueling. As soon as there's a 150-200 mile range affordable (Tesla S is beyond my budget) EV out there, I'll replace my wife's Civic as well.

 

[Herm]

Good article, thanks.. this administration is gun-ho on electrics, and we like that.. hopefully they are correct in choosing electrics and not wrong like many of the other things that they do.. We hope..

We could do CNG/Diesel long distance 18 wheelers today, its not an emergency but gradual incentives by the Feds would be a great idea.. a few "adjustments" in some agencies could remove most of the roadblocks without much pain.. same thing goes for smaller vehicles. It may be the only way that Ford F150s will survive in the future, and they need to survive.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i know a few people who used CNG for transportation but have moved away from them simply because the conversions had poor reliability. maintenance was higher, CNG prices were not stable and home delivery is not a viable option around here. gas is not delivered at pressure here so it must be pumped into the car and i guess that option is not cheap.

the only real benefit is that its domestic fuel that already has a pretty good distribution system in place. i would move it to vehicles where batteries are not currently feasible like big trucks where very large tanks are not that tough to build. not sure of the safety issues or the size of the tank and i am guessing that and the less than available aspect of CNG in the boonies is the reason that conversions are not discussed now.

but large vehicles like full sized trucks i am guessing could be redesigned to put large tanks running under the bed of the truck? that would take money and a lot of PR to change our set ways of thinking about transportation

 

[Deleted member 3147]

i know a few people who used CNG for transportation but have moved away from them simply because the conversions had poor reliability. maintenance was higher, CNG prices were not stable and home delivery is not a viable option around here. gas is not delivered at pressure here so it must be pumped into the car and i guess that option is not cheap.

AFAIK, all home CNG fueling requires a compressor to fill the car. Is this incorrect?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i know a few people who used CNG for transportation but have moved away from them simply because the conversions had poor reliability. maintenance was higher, CNG prices were not stable and home delivery is not a viable option around here. gas is not delivered at pressure here so it must be pumped into the car and i guess that option is not cheap.

AFAIK, all home CNG fueling requires a compressor to fill the car. Is this incorrect?

not a clue. only know of one guy who did it and quit. said it was not worth the cost or expense or hassle and another who says the same thing but still does it but only because he cant afford a Leaf

 

[91040]

AFAIK, all home CNG fueling requires a compressor to fill the car. Is this incorrect?

The fueling unit compresses natural gas to 3600PSI for newer cars (3000PSI for older). It use about as much energy as a refrigerator when operating. It is equivalent to our trickle charge as it takes overnight to completely refuel the car. The commercial stations take about 5 minutes.

 

[Adrian]

AFAIK, all home CNG fueling requires a compressor to fill the car. Is this incorrect?

The fueling unit compresses natural gas to 3600PSI for newer cars (3000PSI for older). It use about as much energy as a refrigerator when operating. It is equivalent to our trickle charge as it takes overnight to completely refuel the car. The commercial stations take about 5 minutes.

Here are the specs for two common home CNG compressors used: http://www.brcfuelmaker.it/ing/rifornimentoVeicoli.asp

The FM series can be rebuilt in the US for about $1,000, will run 4,000 hrs between rebuilds and puts out about 1GGE (gasoline gallon equivalent) per hour. It makes sense to buy this unit.

The Phill has to be shipped to Italy for repairs and I hear it cost about $2,000 for a rebuild. It only puts out about 0.4 GGE/hr so it's rebuild cost is 5X higher per GGE of fuel than the FM series. It makes no sense to buy this unit. Many have tried using this unit and have given up because the economics make no sense and it is unreliable.

 

[LEAFfan]

My 2008 has both a low and high pressure filter.

OOps! Of course it does! LOL, I had a brain fart. I even put in parentheses 2001 and newer. If I had had that extra low pressure filter, chances are I wouldn't have had over $2500 in repairs. Neither Trillium nor Honda would help financially with any of the repairs. Anyway, when I sold it, it ran like a top. Did you know your two O2 sensors cost over $400 each? I found the exact ones at AutoZone for about $280 each (Bosch). The $50 ones won't work from Denso.

 

[mxp]

I searched the forum and suprisingly, I can't seem to find any form of commentary about CNG vehicle ownership vs the Leaf.
I think there may have been some folks here who owned a CNG vehicle prior to purchasing a Leaf, so perhaps, it would be great to have some comparisons:
1. CNG vs electric fuel costs
2. Access to fueling stations (any options for home?)
3. Range
4. What are the CNG Conversion options available?
5. Any new CNG vehicles coming to market in future?
Thanks!

CNG is better than a gasoline comparison, but even with CNG vs. a LEAF, no contest! It would be a little better for someone in Utah where CNG is only $1.07/gge and they get up to a $2500 state tax credit for a used vehicle.
1. My fuel costs with my Honda GX would now be about $2/gge and that price would be driving a 56 mile RT (2. no home options) to be able to obtain CLEAN fuel. The next closest isn't as clean (not bad though) and costs close to or over $3/gge now. These stations (CleanNergy) raise their prices when gasoline prices rise. NEVER use Trillium natural gas no matter what price (caused over $2500 in repairs from 'dirty', oily fuel)! The 2001's and newer had an extra fuel filter (low pressure) added to avoid what happened to my 2000.
3. Since I had two tanks (17gge but only about 13gge total fill) I could go over 500 miles hwy and 425-450 city averaging about 39-40m/gge. With one tank, the range was around 160-170 before the low fuel light would come on which would give you about 50-55 miles left.
4. When you convert (mine cost about $6K to convert my '90 Toyota Celica GT-S) there are many more problems and maintenance. Also, bi-fuels are no longer allowed in the HOV lanes and no AF plate. Stalling and lower mileage is very common with conversions and they don't run as smoothly as dedicated ones.
5. I haven't kept up with any except I know Honda is still making the Civic GX available. I really have no more interest in CNG or H2. I LOVE fueling at home for FREE! :mrgreen:

Many thanks to LEAFfan, Adrian and the others who made this a very educational thread for me (and hopefully others too!)

 

[TomT]

Apparently the U.S. is pushing for a Natural Gas vehicle build out...

https://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/us-wants-natural-gas-major-auto-fuel-option" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[EdmondLeaf]

I still do not understand, why CNG price follow oil price, but not natural gas market price (OK have lot of incentives for CNG vehicles).

 

[Smidge204]

I spent all day servicing a CNG facility so I'm getting a kick...

CNG is a vehicle fuel, so the price will follow the price of vehicle fuels. All this means is the companies widen their profit margins.

but large vehicles like full sized trucks i am guessing could be redesigned to put large tanks running under the bed of the truck? that would take money and a lot of PR to change our set ways of thinking about transportation

I've personally dealt with lots of CNG school buses. Thanks to the large, mostly open undercarriage they are indistinguishable from diesel buses except they are quieter, don't leave that distinctive diesel exhaust odor as they drive by, and don't produce soot... so there are three other benefits to using CNG in my opinion.

I've also dealt with garbage trucks, conversions and new. New trucks have the tanks between the cab and body, conversions had them there the diesel tank would normally go (sacrificing whatever else was attached to the frame at that point.) The conversions seem to get much poorer fuel economy than the new ones.

I'm also aware of a company that will do CNG+Electric hybrid retrofits. Groovy.
=Smidge=

 

[wishboneash]

I searched the forum and suprisingly, I can't seem to find any form of commentary about CNG vehicle ownership vs the Leaf.

I think there may have been some folks here who owned a CNG vehicle prior to purchasing a Leaf, so perhaps, it would be great to have some comparisons:

1. CNG vs electric fuel costs
2. Access to fueling stations (any options for home?)
3. Range
4. What are the CNG Conversion options available?
5. Any new CNG vehicles coming to market in future?

Thanks!

I currently have a 1998 Civic NGV and the LEAF. The Civic was my commute car until the Leaf came along. With current price of CNG and gasoline in my area it is about the same cost to drive the NGV versus a hybrid like the Prius. The advantage of course is that the single driver NGV can use the carpool lane in California. The LEAF works out to be about 1/4 the cost of driving the NGV (@5.4miles/kWhr). If I had a home filling option for CNG, the cost could be lower, but then there is the cost of the pressurization unit which is not cheap or subsidized.

The one major issue with the CNG car is that it is not ready for mass adoption because of the woeful public/commercial infrastructure for high pressure filling. Only car at a time can use these units because of the high pressure requirements - so imagine having 5 or 10 cars pulling up to fill like in a gas station. It would take 30 minutes to an hour fill these cars versus 5 minutes for gasoline.

Anyhow, I keep the NGV for the days I need more range (220 miles) and I can still use the carpool lane. My son uses it as well to drive around town. It is certainly very clean (except for the CO2 emissions) and the engine oil looks amazingly clean after thousands of miles of driving.

I can't comment on your other questions, since I never considered conversion options. I don't think they are worth the effort. A good hybrid or plug-in hybrid (for carpool access) might be better in most other respects.

 

[garygid]

The big question #6 is...
Do you want to continue to polute as you drive?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

the "wait" time factor applies to all forms of public fuel. 20-30 minutes? ask someone in New Jersey about that. I have waited up to 15 minutes at a quick charge station 4 times last month, there was a line to charge. took me 26 minutes to get gas once. 6 times over 20 minutes.

but there is also a time factor. NG has been around for a while and does not seem to be going anywhere. EVs have less than a 2 year life for most of the country and only DIY's and NEVs for most of the rest of the country. We are getting more QCs locally that should help lighten the load.

right now we rely on FB more than any other website to determine if the station is working and whether or not we can expect a line. its all still early, it all still needs work. we have not yet dreamed of the best or even a widely acceptable solution

 

[LEAFfan]

I searched the forum and suprisingly, I can't seem to find any form of commentary about CNG vehicle ownership vs the Leaf.

I think there may have been some folks here who owned a CNG vehicle prior to purchasing a Leaf, so perhaps, it would be great to have some comparisons:

1. CNG vs electric fuel costs
2. Access to fueling stations (any options for home?)
3. Range
4. What are the CNG Conversion options available?
5. Any new CNG vehicles coming to market in future?

Thanks!

I currently have a 1998 Civic NGV and the LEAF. The Civic was my commute car until the Leaf came along. With current price of CNG and gasoline in my area it is about the same cost to drive the NGV versus a hybrid like the Prius. The advantage of course is that the single driver NGV can use the carpool lane in California. The LEAF works out to be about 1/4 the cost of driving the NGV (@5.4miles/kWhr). If I had a home filling option for CNG, the cost could be lower, but then there is the cost of the pressurization unit which is not cheap or subsidized.

The one major issue with the CNG car is that it is not ready for mass adoption because of the woeful public/commercial infrastructure for high pressure filling. Only car at a time can use these units because of the high pressure requirements - so imagine having 5 or 10 cars pulling up to fill like in a gas station. It would take 30 minutes to an hour fill these cars versus 5 minutes for gasoline.
Anyhow, I keep the NGV for the days I need more range (220 miles) and I can still use the carpool lane. My son uses it as well to drive around town. It is certainly very clean (except for the CO2 emissions) and the engine oil looks amazingly clean after thousands of miles of driving.
I can't comment on your her questions, since I never considered conversion options. I don't think they are worth the effort. A good hybrid or plug-in hybrid (for carpool access) might be better in most other respects.

I guarantee you that your maintenance costs on your GX will far exceed your
LEAF's. Since you have a '98, it has no low pressure filter so make sure you use extra 'clean
' CNG or you could have some major problems.

 

[wishboneash]

I searched the forum and suprisingly, I can't seem to find any form of commentary about CNG vehicle ownership vs the Leaf.

I think there may have been some folks here who owned a CNG vehicle prior to purchasing a Leaf, so perhaps, it would be great to have some comparisons:

1. CNG vs electric fuel costs
2. Access to fueling stations (any options for home?)
3. Range
4. What are the CNG Conversion options available?
5. Any new CNG vehicles coming to market in future?

Thanks!

I currently have a 1998 Civic NGV and the LEAF. The Civic was my commute car until the Leaf came along. With current price of CNG and gasoline in my area it is about the same cost to drive the NGV versus a hybrid like the Prius. The advantage of course is that the single driver NGV can use the carpool lane in California. The LEAF works out to be about 1/4 the cost of driving the NGV (@5.4miles/kWhr). If I had a home filling option for CNG, the cost could be lower, but then there is the cost of the pressurization unit which is not cheap or subsidized.

The one major issue with the CNG car is that it is not ready for mass adoption because of the woeful public/commercial infrastructure for high pressure filling. Only car at a time can use these units because of the high pressure requirements - so imagine having 5 or 10 cars pulling up to fill like in a gas station. It would take 30 minutes to an hour fill these cars versus 5 minutes for gasoline.
Anyhow, I keep the NGV for the days I need more range (220 miles) and I can still use the carpool lane. My son uses it as well to drive around town. It is certainly very clean (except for the CO2 emissions) and the engine oil looks amazingly clean after thousands of miles of driving.
I can't comment on your her questions, since I never considered conversion options. I don't think they are worth the effort. A good hybrid or plug-in hybrid (for carpool access) might be better in most other respects.

I guarantee you that your maintenance costs on your GX will far exceed your
LEAF's. Since you have a '98, it has no low pressure filter so make sure you use extra 'clean
' CNG or you could have some major problems.

Yes, for sure. Have replaced an injector already - very expensive. The LEAF is almost free to drive as far as I am concerned. The CNG has better range for the times I need it which is few and far between.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

other than range, CNG has nothing to offer me.

other than big $$ to install home filling station (which i would really NEVER consider doing) CNG removes one of my "main 3 reasons to drive EV"

another thing to consider. people driving CNG are probably more cautious and prepared than the average Joe, but i see a lot of home accidents happening if CNG ever did become mainstream. we also need to remember that CNG might be a bit easier to make than oil, but its supply is still restricted and relatively hard to obtain. I say relatively because it aint too difficult to move out of the shade or catch a breeze