Proposed New Sale EV Window Sticker Disclosures

[hill]

THE EV COMMUNITY NEEDS REGULATIONS TO ADDRESS ADVERTISED RANGE EXPECTATIONS AND SPECIFIC GUIDANCE ON HOW LOCAL CLIMATE, TIME, AND HEATER / AIR CONDITIONER AFFECTS RANGE THROUGH 5 YEARS... ON THE CAR'S WINDOW LIKE THE MONRONEY STICKER.

Please use this thread to discuss.

Isn't there a manditory Monroney sticker coming in 2013 that covers all the types of plug in disclosures?

 

[ALLWATZ]

Most (more than 2/3rds of drivers) are actually in the 'severe service' realm of vehicle operation. Additionally, the fuel economy estimates already account for high-speed driving and air conditioning use. We don't need to further pad the numbers for factors already included in the labels.

Severe service for a ICE isn't the same as severe service for a BEV.

Short drives in ICEs at low speeds don't allow for the oil to get hot enough to drive out unburned gasoline and assorted combustion products including water.

Short drives in BEVs at low speeds are ideal.

Driving an ICE in cold temperature has a similar effect while driving a BEV in high temperatures has proven disastrous on the battery.

It's a different mindset. One that is definitely not properly communicated. When I signed the paperwork, most of the information was in there, although vaguely so. Yet most people don't read the fine print. Would this be different if it were fine print plastered on the window? Somehow I have my doubts.

I don't. If the big number that all of the car makers put on the sticker and love to brag about would have said something like "100 miles of range for urban mild climate areas, assuming low mileage and only 80% charges to full which won't get you 100 miles, and 45 miles with rapid battery losses in hot climates even though you will have to charge to 100% to get that many miles, which by the way we don't recommend, even if you have babied your vehicle" I think it would turn off a lot of buyers. Gee, I wonder why they don't want to post something like that

 

[GetOffYourGas]

I don't. If the big number that all of the car makers put on the sticker and love to brag about would have said something like "100 miles of range for urban mild climate areas, assuming low mileage and only 80% charges to full which won't get you 100 miles, and 45 miles with rapid battery losses in hot climates even though you will have to charge to 100% to get that many miles, which by the way we don't recommend, even if you have babied your vehicle" I think it would turn off a lot of buyers. Gee, I wonder why they don't want to post something like that

I guess my comment was more to the fact that I don't believe many people will read it even if it's plastered on the window. I had to read and sign multiple pages before I was able to proceed to even talking about financing. If you really read and understand this information, it would have sent up red flags all over the place for an owner in hot climates.

IMHO, the information shouldn't just be on paper. Yes, it should be written down, but the potential buyer should be required to take a survey. I'm thinking about the "is an EV right for me" that Ford makes you go through before reserving a FFE. It just needs to be expanded to include highway miles, temperatures (i.e. where do you live? where do you park?).

These are just not normal considerations for ICEs. But BEVs are still in their infancy. We're all learning. Of course, there's hope that by the time we've learned all these lessons, they're obsolete by fact of new battery tech. A couple of potential solutions loom on the near-to-mid-term horizon.

 

[AndyH]

Most (more than 2/3rds of drivers) are actually in the 'severe service' realm of vehicle operation. Additionally, the fuel economy estimates already account for high-speed driving and air conditioning use. We don't need to further pad the numbers for factors already included in the labels.

Severe service for a ICE isn't the same as severe service for a BEV.

Short drives in ICEs at low speeds don't allow for the oil to get hot enough to drive out unburned gasoline and assorted combustion products including water.

Short drives in BEVs at low speeds are ideal.

It's more than just the battery. It's speed, load, AC use, ambient temperature, aerodynamics (trailers, roof racks/cargo), etc. Tires, brakes, suspension, transmission/differential/transaxle, cooling system, are shared between ICE and EVs.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

not sure i can say a sticker is going to work. after all, it would not be tailored to the regional weather and will have its normal range of mileage that is so broad that ANY thing would qualify.

what i rather see is (at least in the owners manual) a degradation curve based on "non variables" just showing time and cycling. the greatest problem with the LEAF as i see it is the unknown. am i to believe that Nissan is muddling thru all this for the first time right along with me and the AZ issues are a shock to them?

ummm, well no. cant believe that. but at the same time all new products cannot be completely vetted during QA and beta testing. there are just too many variables so is it some sort of sick joke by Nissan that ground zero is practically across the street from where the bulk of the testing supposedly took place?

but i do know people well enough to know that more #'s on that sheet will do nothing but create confusion and opportunities for fast talking salesmen.

they cant out talk someone who has done their homework online before hitting the lots but...i was a car salesman and so 1 in 8 will already know what the sticker says and what it means, the other 7 will be at the mercy of the salesman

the current format of the sticker is so vague as to really be valueless. sure its ok to compare this and that but how do you do that with batteries when they have a "wear" rating of 1.8 in Phoenix but .6 in Oly?

 

[GRA]

not sure i can say a sticker is going to work. after all, it would not be tailored to the regional weather and will have its normal range of mileage that is so broad that ANY thing would qualify.

what i rather see is (at least in the owners manual) a degradation curve based on "non variables" just showing time and cycling. the greatest problem with the LEAF as i see it is the unknown. am i to believe that Nissan is muddling thru all this for the first time right along with me and the AZ issues are a shock to them?

ummm, well no. cant believe that. but at the same time all new products cannot be completely vetted during QA and beta testing. there are just too many variables so is it some sort of sick joke by Nissan that ground zero is practically across the street from where the bulk of the testing supposedly took place?

but i do know people well enough to know that more #'s on that sheet will do nothing but create confusion and opportunities for fast talking salesmen.

they cant out talk someone who has done their homework online before hitting the lots but...i was a car salesman and so 1 in 8 will already know what the sticker says and what it means, the other 7 will be at the mercy of the salesman

the current format of the sticker is so vague as to really be valueless. sure its ok to compare this and that but how do you do that with batteries when they have a "wear" rating of 1.8 in Phoenix but .6 in Oly?

I think the single most valuable piece of info that needs to go on a BEV Monroney sticker for people who have no knowledge or experience of EVs, is this:

"Battery End of Life (70% capacity) range: X miles."

And then some small print explaining that all batteries degrade over time, and that most drivers should use the EOL range to see if a BEV suits their needs. Mainstream drivers don't grok this instinctively, because ICEs don't do this to any significant amount, and start with far more range to boot. Then, let's show cold and hot weather ranges separately.

 

[kubel]

I propose no additional stickers. People need to do their homework before going out and buying a car and not expect big brother to do it for them. Before I bought my last car (a used Crown Victoria, no warranty), I hit review sites, fan forums, etc... All three of the problems that I had well after I got the car, I knew before I even took the test drive. Why? Because I spent a little time doing research. With that newfangled interwebs thing, people have no excuse these days.

Before parking my LEAF in the driveway, before signing, before the test drive, before I even reserved the LEAF- I knew:

1) Extreme heat was going to kill the battery prematurely... Not a problem, I live in Michigan... ::Cue record 105F summer::.
2) Winter would have a significant impact on range.
3) Real world range would probably be around 75 miles and vary... a lot...
4) Highway driving decreases range.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Before parking my LEAF in the driveway, before signing, before the test drive, before I even reserved the LEAF- I knew:

1) Extreme heat was going to kill the battery prematurely... Not a problem, I live in Michigan... ::Cue record 105F summer::.
2) Winter would have a significant impact on range.
3) Real world range would probably be around 75 miles and vary... a lot...
4) Highway driving decreases range.

Wonderful soliloquie of your awesomeness. Unfortunately, LEAF purchasers / leasees like YOU benefit from our hard knocks with the LEAF and provided that information to you. It wasn't available on day one for consumers, but obviously, Nissan knew these issues on day one.

You're welcome.

 

[mrradon]

I recall my mom buying a new car to commute to a job 2.5 miles away. After a year her entire exhaust was rusted out on a brand new car. The dealer said it wasn't under warranty because she drove to short between trips. It was actually written in the service contract like that.

There are lots of real world conditions that effect products. Who would think parking an EV on a 150F pavement is not going to effect batteries? Have they not read anything about batteries?

 

[pchilds]

Nissan assured purchasers that there would be no problem with heat, they tested the car in Arizona and it didn't need a TMS. We were lied to and cheated out of our money.

 

[Herm]

How about forcing the manufacturer to OFFER an optional 80% capacity in five years / 62k miles warranty?.. let the manufacturers set the price on that warranty and market forces will take care of it. Much simpler than a bunch of stickers with charts etc with no room for whining later on.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

How about forcing the manufacturer to OFFER an optional 80% capacity in five years / 62k miles warranty?.. let the manufacturers set the price on that warranty and market forces will take care of it. Much simpler than a bunch of stickers with charts etc with no room for whining later on.

sounds good but that will no doubt bring on a TON of guidelines and whatnot that the manufacturer will impose to insure more longevity of the pack.