Prolonging battery life, temperature, state-of-charge

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surfingslovak said:
Great, yes, it would be very interesting to get some data from his fleet vehicles. If he didn't have an SOC meter, perhaps a loaner could be found. Way to promote his business BTW, very clever. I believe that Jimmydreams was well over 10K miles as well. He is in SoCal though.
I'll try to remember that next time I run into him. May just have to buy an SOC meter for him! It's all in the community anyway, and that kind of data is worth a few coin! hmmm.. wait the SOC 281 magic number is what we're guessing is SOC or maybe pack voltage or some where in between - but it might still go close to 281 if that's the scaled available charge vs. the capacity level - or maybe it's absolute available charge compared to new. I guess since pack capacity varies a little by temperature, observing full charged hot packs, fully charged cold packs adn watching a fully charged pack go from hot to cold and cold to hot could help differentiate some of the numbers and better identify them.
 
ElectricVehicle said:
I'll try to remember that next time I run into him. May just have to buy an SOC meter for him! It's all in the community anyway, and that kind of data is worth a few coin! hmmm.. wait the SOC 281 magic number is what we're guessing is SOC or maybe pack voltage or some where in between - but it might still go close to 281 if that's the scaled available charge vs. the capacity level - or maybe it's absolute available charge compared to new. I guess since pack capacity varies a little by temperature, observing full charged hot packs, fully charged cold packs adn watching a fully charged pack go from hot to cold and cold to hot could help differentiate some of the numbers and better identify them.
Based on my understanding of the shop manual, I would think that Nissan keeps track of the exact amount of battery degradation and this value is broadcast over the CAN bus. We just haven't found it yet. The SOC values are quite useful, but we don't have full understanding of how they are calculated.

That aside for a moment, I just read through a web chat with Bill Wallace, GM's Director of Global Battery Systems. Among other things, the following has been said:

2:47 Comment From Guest
what advancements over say a laptop battery do the volt batteries have?

2:49 Bill Wallace
The primary advantage of the Volt battery is extended user life, which, compared to a typical laptop battery, lasts ten times longer. In addition, the Volt battery can also deliver the power required for rapid acceleration. Laptop batteries are only able to deliver power at a low and constant rate.

2:57 Comment From Burt
I know how long the Volt battery is guarantee for, but how long do you think the useful life really is? As an early adopter I would like to think that the car would have resale value after 8 years.

2:58 Bill Wallace
For those of you who don't know, the Volt's battery is warrantied for 8-years/100,000 miles. Engineers at our Global Battery Systems Lab here in Warren (where I'm doing this chat today. It's the largest automotive battery lab in North America.) have tested the Volt's battery packs for more than double that amount of miles. We are confident that the Volt will prove its value well beyond the warranty period.


3:25 Comment From Matt
What chemistry lithium batteries are used in the Volt?

3:29 Seth Fletcher
Hi Matt: Unless Bill wants to correct me, I'll do this one -- the simple answer is that LG Chem's cells use lithium manganese spinel cathodes. But earlier this year Mohamed Alamgir from LG Chem admitted that LG blends in some nickel-manganese-cobalt, which was developed by Argonne. So it's a blend.
 
I've been following this thread for a while now, trying to learn how I should prolong the life of the battery in my Leaf when I finally get it (around christmas time).

You have mainly discussed higher temperatures and not low temperatures.
Is the reason Nissan tells us to avoid 100% charge mainly because of the strain the increase in temperature puts on the battery when charging? And that high ambient temperatures worsen this strain?

I live in a cold area, the westcoast of Norway. Our average yearly temperature is probably around 45-50 F, with normal temperature during winter of just above freezing and 60 F in the summer. Of course we do have days in the low 20 F and mid 70 F (although way to few of the latter).
With ambient temperatures like that will it be less harmfull to charge more often to 100% than with ambient temperatures in the 90's? I would also think that charging to 100% also heats the battery more and should prolong the range? Not only because of the added 20% charge, but also because of the higher temperature of the battery?
 
ovev said:
I've been following this thread for a while now, trying to learn how I should prolong the life of the battery in my Leaf when I finally get it (around christmas time).

You have mainly discussed higher temperatures and not low temperatures.
Is the reason Nissan tells us to avoid 100% charge mainly because of the strain the increase in temperature puts on the battery when charging? And that high ambient temperatures worsen this strain?

I live in a cold area, the westcoast of Norway. Our average yearly temperature is probably around 45-50 F, with normal temperature during winter of just above freezing and 60 F in the summer. Of course we do have days in the low 20 F and mid 70 F (although way to few of the latter).
With ambient temperatures like that will it be less harmfull to charge more often to 100% than with ambient temperatures in the 90's? I would also think that charging to 100% also heats the battery more and should prolong the range? Not only because of the added 20% charge, but also because of the higher temperature of the battery?
Nissan doesn't let us charge to 100% in any condition - and the fast charge to "80%" is really only to maybe 72% of battery capacity - so we end users have ZERO challenge with heat during driving or charging. By the time you get your car, you'll probably have one with a battery heater - and that should eliminate concerns about charging below 0°C.

Keep in mind as folks try to understand what 100% charge really means that Nissan (and every other manufacturer selling lithium cells) will simply not let us discharge the bottom 15-20% of the battery's ultimate capacity, and won't let us charge or use the top 15-20% (depending on the exact chemistry). Therefore, we absolutely do not need to worry about whether charging to 100% will heat the battery - because we'll never be allowed to do it.
 
AndyH said:
Nissan doesn't let us charge to 100% in any condition - and the fast charge to "80%" is really only to maybe 72% of battery capacity...

Where did you get your info about QC only charging to an actual 72%? I've been waiting for our two to go online so I can see what SOC% will show on my gauge. Right now, with the Blink, it shows 76.5% for an 80% charge. I was expecting the same or better with a QC.
 
Charging Li-Ion to 100% is not a heat concern. Keeping a high charge, near 100%, deteriorates Li-Ion. It is the time spent near 100% that deteriorates.

DC quick charging can be used to fully charge the battery. It may require restarting the charging station after it clicks off, but it will do it.
 
Indeed, to provide reasonable battery life, Nissan does not allow us to use 100% of the actual battery capacity. If the actual capacity is 24 kWh and the usable capacity is about 21 kWh, which seems consistent with experience described on multiple threads here, then we are allowed to use about 88% of the actual capacity. Of course, pinning down "actual capacity" is somewhat fluid, as it depends on the voltage thresholds chosen at the upper and lower ends. I'm just going with 24 kWh because that's what the car is advertised as having.

In any case, "100% charge" is apparently close enough to the battery's actual 100% that Nissan advises charging to 80% instead when possible; they explicitly refer to 80% as "long life mode". Whether a "100% charge" is truly 85% or 95% of the actual capacity, we know from the owner's manual that it is not recommended to leave the battery sitting at "100%" for long periods of time. If one does need to charge to 100%, finishing charging shortly before driving seems to be a good idea.

As to the question of temperature, yes, lower temperatures should help slow capacity degradation, to some degree, when charging to 100%. At the upper end of the charge range, "secondary" chemical reactions that gradually reduce the battery's capacity occur in greater numbers. However, in general, chemical reactions are slowed by cooler temperatures. This is also why cold batteries offer less range, as charging and discharging involve "primary" chemical reactions.

Finally, while the LEAF's battery chemistry is relatively very stable thermally, charging to 100% does tend to raise the battery temperature a bit more than charging to only 80%. Especially with our coarse-grained battery temperature gauge, this hardly seems noticeable. But it is true that any extra heating will help your range in cold weather. Definitely do not hesitate to charge to 100% if you need the range.
 
There have been reports of 4.1V per cell at 100% charge (IIRC) and in my book that is damn close to 100%. Of course none of us has put a voltmeter to a Leaf so its all open to can bus interpretation.
 
kovalb said:
Charging Li-Ion to 100% is not a heat concern. Keeping a high charge, near 100%, deteriorates Li-Ion. It is the time spent near 100% that deteriorates.

DC quick charging can be used to fully charge the battery. It may require restarting the charging station after it clicks off, but it will do it.


The temp of the pack rises the most at the end of the balancing of a pack at 100% because the electro chemistry is not perfect in the Li-ion which causes the resistance to go up and creates higher heat which accelerates the degradation of the pack, in simple terms. Yes, charging to 100% creates more heat and shortens the life as a result in addition to storing at 100%.
 
My wife uses the car for her short commute on weekdays. On weekends we usually travel to our caravan close to 60 miles from home. In freezing temperatures and hilly terrain we really do need 100% charge to get to and from our caravan. We will get the 2012 Leaf and i expect the heated seats and heated steering wheel will come in handy.
Therefore I plan on charging to 80% night to monday-thursday, 100% night to friday, 80% night to saturday and 100% manual charge on sunday. After the sunday night charge is finished I'll leave it connected 2-3 hours to allow for battery balancing before leaving for home. Coming summer we just might be able to get by using 80% charge to and from our caravan.

I guess that should not put too much strain on the battery?
 
ovev said:
My wife uses the car for her short commute on weekdays. On weekends we usually travel to our caravan close to 60 miles from home. In freezing temperatures and hilly terrain we really do need 100% charge to get to and from our caravan. We will get the 2012 Leaf and i expect the heated seats and heated steering wheel will come in handy.
Therefore I plan on charging to 80% night to monday-thursday, 100% night to friday, 80% night to saturday and 100% manual charge on sunday. After the sunday night charge is finished I'll leave it connected 2-3 hours to allow for battery balancing before leaving for home. Coming summer we just might be able to get by using 80% charge to and from our caravan.

I guess that should not put too much strain on the battery?
That sounds pretty reasonable to me. Folks who usually charge to 100% and already have 10,000+ miles on their LEAFs haven't reported any degradation yet. When you need 100%, use it. The key is to not let the battery sit at 100% for too long. Charge, then drive! :D
 
Thank you for your response. :)

Can't wait to get my Leaf, even though it will be mid winter when I get it. :D
 
Does anyone know what exactly constitutes a "cycle" for the battery?

Is it a full discharge - charge, i.e. emptying the battery and then charging back to full? Or do I use up a cycle every time I plug in to charge?

Assuming we have something about ~ 1000 cycles for the battery, does that mean that it will approximately deliver
over its lifetime 21 kWh x 1000 = 21 MWh or (e.g. with 4 Mi/kWh) ~ 84000 Miles of range?
Or , if I recharge daily, even for small amounts (I rarely use more than 1-2 bars for my commute), it will degrade after 1000 days ?
 
ovev said:
After the sunday night charge is finished I'll leave it connected 2-3 hours to allow for battery balancing before leaving for home.

In order to cell balance, I wonder what the minimum time is to leave it plugged in after the 100% (94% for mine) charge?
 
ovev said:
On weekends we usually travel to our caravan close to 60 miles from home. ... 100% charge to get to and from our caravan. ... 80% charge to and from our caravan.
Definitely off-topic, but I'm curious. What's a "caravan"? In my language it's a group of vehicles traveling together (or maybe camels in Africa). Is this a British or regional usage? I'm not trying to poke fun - just honestly wondering.

Wasn't it George Bernard Shaw who was supposed to have said that Britain and America are two nations divided by a common language?

Ray
 
planet4ever said:
ovev said:
On weekends we usually travel to our caravan close to 60 miles from home. ... 100% charge to get to and from our caravan. ... 80% charge to and from our caravan.
Definitely off-topic, but I'm curious. What's a "caravan"? In my language it's a group of vehicles traveling together (or maybe camels in Africa). Is this a British or regional usage? I'm not trying to poke fun - just honestly wondering.

http://www.nocc.no/artimages/Campingvogn og bil1.jpg
 
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