Progress of Nissan's Battery Plant in Smyrna, TN

[Jay]

Might as well add my 2p as this story is unnecessarily taking a life of its own.

Talked to Nissan today about this, and they said it had nothing at all to do with the plant itself, and that they just couldn't get their attendees schedules coordinated. I asked them about the status of the plant and the US production for next month....they said that the plant is producing batteries now for LEAF production next month, and everything is still on track for US LEAFs.

 

[Nubo]

Might as well add my 2p as this story is unnecessarily taking a life of its own.

Talked to Nissan today about this, and they said it had nothing at all to do with the plant itself, and that they just couldn't get their attendees schedules coordinated. I asked them about the status of the plant and the US production for next month....they said that the plant is producing batteries now for LEAF production next month, and everything is still on track for US LEAFs.

Seems rather inept... :?

 

[stanley]

Statik, thank you for trying to deal with wild speculation. This site is more and more acting negatively instead of supporting E V advancement. Nissan does make mistakes as we all do but they need to be given credit for being pioneers and going where no other major car company was willing to go

 

[TomT]

I'm sorry, but I believe that Nissan has no one but themselves to blame for this for the way that they have handled (or not handled) issues and questions that have come up. There is an old adage that 50 percent of the respect that one gets comes about from their position and 50 percent they earn... Nissan has around 60% at the moment...

This site is more and more acting negatively instead of supporting E V advancement. Nissan does make mistakes as we all do but they need to be given credit for being pioneers and going where no other major car company was willing to go

 

[adric22]

Statik, thank you for trying to deal with wild speculation. This site is more and more acting negatively instead of supporting E V advancement. Nissan does make mistakes as we all do but they need to be given credit for being pioneers and going where no other major car company was willing to go

I agree. I have been thoroughly dismayed at how everyone was so enthusiastic on this site until just a few months ago when all of this battery stuff turned up. Then it is like everyone forgot about all of the risk and hard work that Nissan had put forward to bring this product to market.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Statik, thank you for trying to deal with wild speculation. This site is more and more acting negatively instead of supporting E V advancement. Nissan does make mistakes as we all do but they need to be given credit for being pioneers and going where no other major car company was willing to go

the design mistakes Nissan has made with the LEAF are not really the main issue here. EVERY company has missteps in new product launches. What Nissan has failed to do at this point is provide any sense of security to current owners over a major issue of long term degradation.

for those who have lost 7-10% of their range quickly, is this going to continue? will it slow down? According to Nissan, degradation "should" be at the rate of 8, 4, 4, 2, 2% for first 5 years or 62,500 miles according to a baseline they have provided us but what is that baseline based on?

Nissan provides us some above that line (less degradation) and some that are below and they give locations but these locations are "top/bottom" areas. this leaves about 75% in the "in between" areas.

now, what started as interest, curiosity and a general quest for knowledge; has gotten ugly. But that is because the questions asked are not being addressed or answered insufficiently.

Its not hard to see that someone with a 6 year car loan being concerned over what his car can do when

** they dont know what range will be left in 6 years and

**even worse; how much batteries are?

these are pretty basic questions. even Ford will tell you how much a FFEV pack (as if anyone would really pay that much for one) costs and why is it that a compliance car can price it out and Nissan with a supposedly mainstream product cannot?

we can speculate; maybe Ford could care less whether anyone buys an FFEV and so has no issues with the thought of "scaring someone out of buying" due to high pack replacement costs.

either way; even if the price was astronomically high, Nissan is going about this the worst way possible by saying "unavailable"

they could do much better by saying "due to supply constraints, pricing has yet to be determined" or "Our new battery plant has just launched and unfortunately replacement packs and pricing will not be available until "XXXX" date or "We are still working out the logistics of our replacement parts system in the US and the incorporation of the new battery plant..."

i mean all that gives us no more really than we have now but to say

"sorry, replacement battery pack prices are unavailable. Thank You, have a nice day"

 

[LEAFer]

Statik, thank you for trying to deal with wild speculation. This site is more and more acting negatively instead of supporting E V advancement. Nissan does make mistakes as we all do but they need to be given credit for being pioneers and going where no other major car company was willing to go

I agree. I have been thoroughly dismayed at how everyone was so enthusiastic on this site until just a few months ago when all of this battery stuff turned up. Then it is like everyone forgot about all of the risk and hard work that Nissan had put forward to bring this product to market.

+1.

 

[AP1]

+1
This site has turned so negative that I rarely log on anymore. It's more anti-ev than many of the politicians.

 

[surfingslovak]

I agree. I have been thoroughly dismayed at how everyone was so enthusiastic on this site until just a few months ago when all of this battery stuff turned up. Then it is like everyone forgot about all of the risk and hard work that Nissan had put forward to bring this product to market.

It's not just the batteries, there are other documented cases, such as saintyohann's. I do have an appreciation of what Nissan did as an organization by bringing the Leaf to market. However, like any large company, it can suffer from split personalities. It would appear that the bean counters and lawyers have been handling customer escalations lately. While this might be appropriate for other product lines based on more mature technologies, teething issues should be expected when embarking upon a dramatic paradigm shift, and departure from the status quo, which the Leaf clearly represents.

Unfortunately, some of the decision makers and case handlers involved might not have gotten the memo. Apart from that, the single largest failing is the unwillingness or inability to communicate. Every product has its own set of design limitations, and engineering compromises. Describing them in a clear and forthright manner is helpful and important, because it allows customers to consider their particular use cases, and decide if the product will fit their criteria.

Apart from not disclosing battery replacement costs, which are necessary to calculate the TCO, one of the most obvious omissions is the total usable battery capacity. GM disclosed this information for the Volt and this figure can be tracked on the dash as well. They also need to address the failings of the GOM or give customers alternative and accurate instruments they can use to correctly determine the state of the vehicle and its major subsystems, including battery pack temperature.

Is all of this so bad that we have to collectively turn our back on Nissan, and start trashing them and their product? Well, no, but given some of the personal experiences, and how well-meaning attempts from owners lead nowhere at best, or were handled harshly and negatively at worst, it should not be surprising to hear that they don't feel very enthusiastic. The misleading and often incorrect information Nissan's PR and CS machines have produced over time, and the many lofty promises, which could or would not be turned into reality, complete the picture.

Sure, if you drive the car a few miles to town, to the grocery store or to work, then all of this, including the lack of quick charge infrastructure could be a moot point. And I have to agree with Chelsea and others that the Leaf should be marketed as a city runabout, and not as car that will go 100 miles, and more, thanks to the QC network. Yes, it's nice that you could do that when needed, but the Leaf should be marketed on its strengths, and long range is unfortunately not one of them.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

+1
This site has turned so negative that I rarely log on anymore. It's more anti-ev than many of the politicians.

the frustration shown here and elsewhere is something Nissan has recognized and it would appear that they dont know how to handle it. after all, the LEAF has been pretty successful elsewhere (Like Japan) so they have "agreed" to get a focus group to address the issues.

now I, like you and many others, am at a bit of a loss to easily understand why they have been so close mouthed on REALLY basic questions and there is no doubt a major tug of war going on between their legal, marketing and technical depts. hopefully we can help "someone" win because that will result in a win for all of us

 

[KJD]

Statik, thank you for trying to deal with wild speculation. This site is more and more acting negatively instead of supporting E V advancement. Nissan does make mistakes as we all do but they need to be given credit for being pioneers and going where no other major car company was willing to go

I agree. I have been thoroughly dismayed at how everyone was so enthusiastic on this site until just a few months ago when all of this battery stuff turned up. Then it is like everyone forgot about all of the risk and hard work that Nissan had put forward to bring this product to market.

Well said adric. Now I understand the people in AZ being unhappy and if I lived there I would be unhappy as well.

At the same time I must say that my car is almost a year old and the range on my car is holding up really well.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=10290" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The readings on the GID meter also show same as a new car ( 231 at 80% charge ). When I get to the 5 year mark I am sure it will be different, but so far so good.

 

[surfingslovak]

Now I understand the people in AZ being unhappy and if I lived there I would be unhappy as well.

I believe that you and adric22 are good examples of how things should be. Both Nissan and the EV movement in general need happy customers. Although adric22 lives in a hot climate, I believe that the low mileage requirements are helping battery life. Agreed, Phoenix might be a bit extreme when it comes to the climate, but there are other use cases that need to be considered as well.

Take Steve Marsh up in Kent, he is beginning to see the limits of the pack with his 65-miles one-way commute after 55K miles in a cool climate. Meanwhile, people like Tom Moloughney was able to put 75K miles on his MINI-E without facing much degradation. Steve did not have much information to go by when making his purchase decision, only the well-meaning advice from people on this board. And he is still trying to get pricing information on a replacement battery pack.

Every EV is different, and it's in everyone's interest that they are used in a way, which plays into their strengths, not their weaknesses. A number of people in SoCal are seeing appreciable range loss, and quite a few of them have lost a capacity bar. I believe that this outcome was not expected after year and a half, since many consider California to have a moderate climate. I myself have lost about 10% of range. Since I operated the Leaf as my only car, and needed to do 90-100 miles trips with some regularity, I had to pull the plug and go with plan B. I have friends that faced the same challenge.

I'm quoting two SoCal owners below, and although I don't think that this represents the overall attitude, it highlights that the discontent is not limited to a small vocal group of individuals in AZ, as some have suggested before. Yes, the electric drivetrain is amazing, and already superior to the combustion engine. But as history shows, you have to do a lot of little things right to ensure success and mass adoption.

Nissan's response to this issue has been completely unsatisfactory. Next summer is going to be a PR nightmare for them. This year's fuss was just the beginning!

Click to open

Why is it that we have lost the first battery capacity bar at only 13,000 miles? I have now owned a leaf for 16 months and I have already lost close to the full 20%. When I first purchased the Leaf I told everyone that it was the car of the future in fact I think I was instrumental in convincing a friend to buy one. Now I feel that I was 100% wrong and that the leaf is a horrible car made by a company that cares little about their customers or the truth for that matter.

I tried to contact the EV hotline the other day and was left on hold for 43 minutes never even getting a chance to speak with an agent. But they probably wouldn't have been able to do anything anyways based on my past calls to them. I don't think anyone knows much about this car, and if they do they can't tell us anyways as the truth would not help them sell the inventory of near worthless Leafs already on showroom floors.

I am a true EV enthusiast and have owned another electric car before (Mini E).

Click to open

 

[TomT]

I'm near you in Granada Hills and have lost two bars in 23,000 miles and 18 months... I feel your pain and frustration!

Why is it that we have lost the first battery capacity bar at only 13,000 miles? I have now owned a leaf for 16 months and I have already lost close to the full 20%. When I first purchased the Leaf I told everyone that it was the car of the future in fact I think I was instrumental in convincing a friend to buy one. Now I feel that I was 100% wrong and that the leaf is a horrible car made by a company that cares little about their customers or the truth for that matter.

I tried to contact the EV hotline the other day and was left on hold for 43 minutes never even getting a chance to speak with an agent. But they probably wouldn't have been able to do anything anyways based on my past calls to them. I don't think anyone knows much about this car, and if they do they can't tell us anyways as the truth would not help them sell the inventory of near worthless Leafs already on showroom floors.

 

[adric22]

I'm near you in Granada Hills and have lost two bars in 23,000 miles and 18 months... I feel your pain and frustration!

And thus we have YET ANOTHER thread that starts on one topic and eventually turns into a rant about battery degradation. It seems every thread on this forum eventually turns into a discussion, argument, etc about degradation. We could have a thread about how to operate the radio controls and somehow it will get turned into ranting about batteries. That is one of the things that makes me not want to visit this forum anymore. I just want to scream:

"YES! WE KNOW ABOUT THE DEGRADATION. YES, WE KNOW LOTS OF PEOPLE ARE UNHAPPY ABOUT IT. Now, can we move on and keep that discussion in its relevant threads so the rest of us can talk about other aspects of the car?"

 

[thankyouOB]

agree with adric.

 

[TomT]

Probably not, but I trust that your scream at least made you feel better...

"YES! WE KNOW ABOUT THE DEGRADATION. YES, WE KNOW LOTS OF PEOPLE ARE UNHAPPY ABOUT IT. Now, can we move on and keep that discussion in its relevant threads so the rest of us can talk about other aspects of the car?"

 

[surfingslovak]

And thus we have YET ANOTHER thread that starts on one topic and eventually turns into a rant about battery degradation.

Please calm down. It's a polarizing topic, and it does not help to make comments insinuating that this site does nothing to help the EV movement, like stanley did above. Once Nissan has released additional information and taken some other corrective steps, hopefully all this will be in the rear-view mirror. In the meantime, it's good to recommend leasing over outright purchases, which is a constructive step many have taken. It's also good to recommend being conservative with mileage requirements on one charge.

There are other use cases the Leaf is good for such as powering your home after a big storm, and they were discussed at great length here. I know that Nissan has followed this topic very closely on the forum, and believe that the information we provided, and what they saw on Facebook, helped them produce the interview with Varun Bhatia, which now graces the Nissan global website.

It's just like with the comments we had in the advisory board thread couple of days ago: please be mindful of what you say, and don't throw salt into other people's wounds. We have enough hate to go around, there is no need for more.


Click to open

 

[mrradon]

Anyplace where you can't live without A/C is a place God is telling you "DON'T LIVE HERE!".

Look at any Apple product and the max temp's allowed, then measure temp on local AZ black asphalt, now scratch head and ask yourself why you are surprised the batteries are going tits up...

Even if they had liquid cooling you'd still get heat soak.

My co-workers Leaf has 45K still hasn't lost a bar. Move to a cooler climate or buy an ICE vehicle.

From any electronic manual:
Keeping iPod within acceptable temperatures Operate iPod in a place where the temperature is always between 0º and 35º C (32º to 95º F). iPod play time might temporarily shorten in low-temperature conditions.
Store iPod in a place where the temperature is always between -20º and 45º C (-4º to 113º F). Don’t leave iPod in your car, because temperatures in parked cars can exceed this range.
When you’re using iPod or charging the battery, it is normal for iPod to get warm. The exterior of iPod functions as a cooling surface that transfers heat from inside the unit to the cooler air outside.

 

[surfingslovak]

Anyplace where you can't live without A/C is a place God is telling you "DON'T LIVE HERE!".

Oh, no, it's the whole North vs South thing again. We had plenty of that before. Might be time to lock the thread.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

agreed; many here are over reacting to the degradation issues. its become way too negative here. there are some who were directly impacted to a level that forced them to get another car but most are not in that situation.

agreed; we should be concerned about what the future holds. this is not an EV question, its a "viability to maintain one's lifestyle" question. the question of "can i pay for this car and maintain another for those days the LEAF can no longer do it?"

now, if you leased, you might be ok, but what about people who bought one on a 6 year term and degradation says they "might" only get 3 years of use out of it?

agreed; we do need to take a step back. we have forgotten a lot of the good things that brought us here in the first place. speaking for myself; if not the LEAF then what?? not a lot of choices that work for me...

Saying all that; I am grateful to the many members who are stressed over their future but still continue to find answers in a productive AND constructive way.

This board is still doing a great job of devising methodology that may give us the answers we seek before Nissan gets around to it. This needs to continue. we have to stay a bit more on topic here and there but that is pretty much normal for any online board

Nissan does have a lot of questions to answer. some of the questions we ask, I think we already know the answer to. TMS, various heating control and dash display options. sometimes its a lot easier to point out whats wrong then to say how to fix it.

I am sure that Nissan is in a quandary as well as to how best to answer the questions we seek. I dont know if they simply dont have an answer or they are protecting some deep dark secret or they are scrambling for solutions and have no idea when the answers will be ready or if they are just around the corner from some "life changing" announcement.

there is few here or anywhere thats more of a LEAF fan than I am but even I have tempered my recommendations to anyone. its now "less than 50 miles" or "you better think twice" that is the guideline i selected for myself in the long term but even with great leases and 3 year plans i have to stick with the 50 until I get updated info that tells me otherwise