potential Leaf owner have a few questions

[kev888]

i'm completely new to EV, but i'm leaning toward the Leaf as my daily driver since i can take advantage of the HOV sticker, i have a few newbie questions:


1. what made you decide on the Leaf?

2. is it expensive to install home charging station?

3. can the public EV charging stations out there be used universally by all EV cars?

4. how much on average does your monthly electricity bill increase with the Leaf (i will definitely charge it up every night)

5. how's the insurance rate and resale value of an EV compare to regular cars?

 

[Levenkay]

1) When I bought my first LEAF (July, 2011), I chose it because was an affordable pure electric car. The only two alternatives I knew of were out of my price range: the Tesla wildly so, and the Volt moderately so. Plus, I didn't like the idea of buying and maintaining two extra machines (Relative to the LEAF, the Volt has an extra gasoline engine AND another electric machine, all with about the same power rating as the primary electric motor). My expectations of poor reliability haven't been borne out, but I was listening to them at the time. And the price difference was real.

2) The LEAF I bought had been pre-ordered by someone else, who couldn't swing the purchase once the car actually showed up. But the dealer had already worked with whoever it was to get the car accepted into the Department of Energy's "EV Project" study, which meant that a Level2 home charging station was included at no extra cost to me, including installation. EVSE equipment was much more expensive at the time (I remember Lowe's carrying the GE Wattstation for $1K about then), so I was fairly pleased to get the freebie, even though I had to agree to letting the project collect data on my useage patterns, and even though the unit (a Blink - look them up here on the forum: there's an entire sub-group devoted to wailing over their shortcomings) was atrociously unreliable. I lucked out again in that all its serious functional problems were corrected by an onsite warranty service call I finally got not too long before the company went bankrupt. That was about three years ago, and it's been miraculously trouble free ever since. I don't think there's much opportunity anymore for getting a freebie home charging connection, but prices have come down quite a bit since then; I think the stations are going for $400 to $700 now, exclusive of installation. One of the cheapest ways to go is to have the portable EVSE cable that comes with the LEAF modified to handle 240V, and then have an electrician install a 240V electric dryer or range plug of suitable ampacity in your garage to plug the modified cable into. The downside of that is that you then have to chose between leaving the portable cable behind in your garage or constantly stowing/un-stowing it every trip.

3) Public charging points almost universally offer J1772-connectored charging cables. Unfortunately, that only gives you an AC charging session that you'll need to wait (at best 6.6KW speed) over two hours for (That's assuming a 20%-to-80% refill). Except for a couple times when I was just charging for the novelty of it, the only times I EVER use public charging is to use public "Fast" (DCQC) charging, because I'm on a fairly rare long-distance journey. At the moment, those kind of stations come in two flavors: CHAdeMO (the interface used by the LEAF and a couple other Asian EVs) and Tesla Supercharger. The Tesla folks can use CHAdeMO stations via an adapter, but LEAFs can't use Superchargers. And at some point, there may be problems if new DCQCs start having only "SAE Combo" charging plugs. So far, I think those few stations that offer SAE combo plugs are set up to handle CHAdeMO also. So the answer to this part of your question is "mostly yes".

4) My home electricity use, even including the LEAF, is still in the lowest price-bracket for my area. I haven't opted for time-of-use rates, so I'm paying somewhere around 12 cents per KWh. My commuting burns up about 5 to 5.5KWh per day; call it 170KWH/month. That's about $20/month. YMMV.

5) I initially expected my insurance to go down, but after hearing a bit about the very high cost of spare parts and collision repair, I can understand the rates going the other way. But from various people's reports, and my own experience as well, the insurance companies haven't actually figured it out yet, and so they all have just seemingly picked random algorithms. There's little rhyme or reason to it, but if you shop around, you can probably find spreads of at 3::1 or more in pricing, with at least one or two companies offering you about whatever your current rate is. But your insurance premiums are really determined by how accident prone you are, which, as we all know, is completely determined by what your financial credit score is. The resale value of EVs is apparently pretty dismal. I haven't much understanding of this, so hopefully others will speak to that part of your question.

 

[although]

I'll take a crack at this...

1. I chose a plug-in EV because I like the idea of keeping things simple. I chose the leaf because it is the only one with a halfway reasonable price tag.

2. EVSE cost depends mostly on whether you can do it yourself. Figure on $600 if you only have to buy the parts. You'll need to add another $1000 or so if you have to pay a professional to install it. Bear in mind that the car comes with a 120V unit that will do the job in a pinch, but you'll really want to have the faster L2 unit.

3. The tesla branded stations only work for teslas. I think the rest will work with the leaf. Check out plugshare.com and look at the map for your area to see what's available near you.

4. In my case, the extra cost of car charging is lost in the noise of my electric and (natural) gas bill. But I live in a 100 year old house that isn't very energy efficient, and my commute to work is 4.5 miles. Expect to pay about a third of the gasoline cost for a comparable gasoline powered car.

5. Insurance is about the same as for any other econobox hatchback. Resale value is rather poor due to the fear of getting one with a worn out battery. If you tend to drive cars till the wheels fall off, buy it. If you tend to swap cars after a few years you should lease.

That's my take on the subject... Your mileage may vary

 

[cwerdna]

Re #2: It depends. Could be as little as a few hundred, not including hardware to $5K or more (http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8264#p8264).

Re: #4, that's an almost useless question as what someone answers will almost certainly NOT apply to you. See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=142787#p142787. There's a huge range in electricity costs, depending on power plan, tiers and time of day. Let's just say the range could be from under 10 cents/kWh (or even free nighttime charging: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=8816) to say 50 cents/kWh.

For a ballpark figure of how much will come out of the wall to charge (not knowing if you'll be charging at 120 volts, which is less efficient) as opposed to 240 volts, figure 3 to 4 miles/kWh out of the wall. But, we still need to know how many miles you'll drive on average per month.

But, see how 10 cents to 50 cents/kWh can alone make the calculations vary by a LOT?

If you drove 1000 miles/month and averaged 3.5 miles/kWh coming out of the wall, that means 285.7 kWh in additional electricity usage. What is the marginal (incremental) cost of that extra electricity on your power plan?

Can you update your location info via your user name in the upper right > User Control Panel > Profile tab? That way, we don't need to ask in future posts/threads or do sleuthing to deduce it.

This is most important: What are your daily driving needs in terms of miles? How much city vs. highway? Will you have the ability to charge at your work/destinations?

Leaf resale value is terrible. It's good for used car buyers. I paid $9,325 + tax and license for a used '13 SV w/premium package only and under 24K miles on the clock, build month of 5/2013: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=430825#p430825. It replaced the '13 SV w/both packages that I returned at end of lease.

Are you planning to buy new, buy used or lease? You mentioned buy... buying new might not be a good idea. See above.

 

[tkdbrusco]

1. I chose the LEAF because I drive too much to lease and needed to buy instead. The Leaf offered the largest purchase incentives for comparable vehicles, and my wife got a discount through her employer. This and the fact that it was the only manufacturer that provided a reasonably priced replacement batter, if ever needed, and seemed to have a history of supporting its product (compared to other compliance cars).
2. A home charger can cost anywhere from about $400-$2500. It depends on where your panel is, whether you have sufficient service for the extra electricity without upgrading the panel, and which charger you buy. You can also upgrade your included plug to charge at a faster rate if you have a 220v outlet in an accessible area. This is by far the least expensive option. Definitely have an electrician come out first and scope it out. Also you may be eligible for a tax deduction for the purchase and installation of an EVSE. it depends on where you live and your income level.
3. For the most part yes. The Leaf won't be able to use any Tesla chargers or the CCS plug, but will be able to use the vast majority of public chargers.
4. Mine actually went down, but I charge at work about half the time. If your service provider allows it, you should switch to a EV specific time of use plan. This will make your rates at night much cheaper at night (about .10 per kWh in my case). Since we are rarely home during the day (when rates are higher) and have a dishwasher/washer/dryer that can be put on timers, we time them to run at night as well and take advantage of the reduced rates. Therefore even though we are using much more power to charge the car, we are also offsetting other power to cheaper times. Our rates haven't changed, but some months are actually lower.
5. Insurance was about the same as the car we replaced. If you buy a Tesla P90D, that won't be the case, but for a Leaf or comparable EV, they are very similar. Resale is a different story. The resale prices take a major hit, but you are also getting up to $10K in tax rebates on the purchase so you have to keep that in perspective. If you play your cards right an EV can be a very cost effective purchase. Let's say after rebates your new leaf costs you $20K (although right now you should be able to get a 2015 S for about $16K). You will save about $1500 a year in gas and maintenance costs, so after 4 years, even if your resale value is $9-10K, your cost of ownership would be about $4-5K. This is much less than an ICE car.

My two cents on buying an EV right now. It depends on where you live. In states like CA, you can get some ridiculous lease deals. You can get a Fiat 500e right now for $129/mo with $2500 down. The state will give you a $2500 rebate so that's a wash. Your gas savings will account for roughly $80-90 of your payment, so basically you are paying $40-50/mo for a new car. But if you drive too much, this isn't an option because you'll be way over the mileage limit. If you need to buy an EV, the best deal right now is a 2015 S model with QC package. The dealers are giving them away. In a state like CA you can get $5K off for financing (at 0%), most dealers will give another $2-4K off as well. You get a $2500 state credit, and a $7500 federal tax credit. Your out the door price with all of these things factored in is about $16-17K! if you need the extra range, then you may look at the new 2016 SV model with the 30kwh battery, but I doubt you'll get the additional $2-4K off, and the MSRP is about $2K higher, so you'll pay over $20K for the car after credits, still reasonable if you need the added range.

 

[rdhauser]

1. We could afford it. I wanted the cool tech, my wife wanted it as a part of a lifestyle change that included public transportation and ride sharing whenever possible. We both wanted to support Nissan's effort to mass produce an all electric.

2. The wide range of cost estimates you’ve already seen is true. I’d estimate $500 to $2000 depending on how much you are competent to do yourself.

3. You’ve already gotten good feedback on this one. However, we (2011 w/ QC) have friends that live 70 miles away in an area with no charging support. At first we planned to rent a car for our three or four trips per year. After a short time, we purchased adapters that let us use dryer outlets and/or RV outlets. With a “peace of mind” stop of 30 min or so, we felt comfortable making the trip in our LEAF.

4 Here is our total household consumption ( kWh) per calendar year followed by our EV consumption:
CY 12: 8,283 1,146
CY 13: 7,451 943
CY 14: 7,666 835

We only drive about 5,000 mi per year. For what it’s worth, we have a small solar array which produces around 2,000 kWh per year.

5. Haven’t noticed how the insurance rate changed.

 

[rogersleaf]

1. Have a long commute and all together drive a lot of mileage per year (~30K miles/yr). To add a 2nd car for commuting purposes, it needed to make a significant economic change. My goal was 2/3 of the annual mileage going on the LEAF. The LEAF made the most impact for the investment. In a $4/gal fuel market this made a lot of sense, at $2/gal it's break-even at best.

2. Relatively speaking, Yes... for me was a DIY job, a little over $600 for a Clipper Creek + another $200 in electrical supplies. Consider it an investment. Again, at $2/gal the investment is recovered in a little under a year.

3. N/A...In N.E. Ohio, public charging opportunities are few and far between. Personally don't depend on them.

4. In N.E. Ohio, it's mostly relatively cheap coal-powered electricity. My LEAF mileage is concentrated in the Spring through Fall months at a rate of @ 2,000 miles/month (car is useless for my commute in the Winter). The bump in electricity is @ $40/month over those months. This is charging the car from @ 10-15% to 100% battery every evening (max rate of charge on L2).

5. Insurance is almost identical to my '13 CRV. Resale value is the worst for any vehicle I have ever acquired. Mine is leased for 3 years on a 15K miles/yr + paying a slight premium to extend basic warranty mileage to match the term. The general assumption with a leased vehicle is the payment schedule matches the rate of depreciation to where the residual value is a wholesale amount at the end of the lease. I have never returned a leased vehicle as every one was a excellent purchase for the residual value. The LEAF is the first vehicle where I have been "upside-down" in the financing. So, at this point NMAC will be getting a 45K mile lease return that will likely be worth ~$8K at auction with a residual balance in the mid $13K's. Now, the lease contract makes an excellent hedge on this excessive loss in value. However, the same monthly payment terms into any solid mid-size (Camry, Accord, Altima, etc...) would likely net a positive equity position at lease end (not a $5K loss).

 

[Flyct]

What made you decide on the Leaf?
• We wanted a cool car to run around town, go to the store, pick up grand kids from school etc. We are retired and 98% of our trips are less than 70 miles round trip. We have a $67.000 2015 Lexus RX450h Hybrid for longer trips when needed. WE had a Lexus CT200h Hybrid which was a Lexus with Prius Drive Train. It did 40 mpg except on very short trips where it did 28 mpg until it warmed up . Electric car doesn have a warm up issue.

Is it expensive to install home charging station?
• Ordered a Eaton Charging station for $548. Cost to add a 240 volt connection is one hour of electrician labor ($140) plus parts so about $155 from my favorite Angie's List Electrician. Charging station is mounted next to the breaker box so he only needed 10 feet of 8/2 w ground NM wire at $1.49.ft. I already had an unused 40 amp breaker.

Can the public EV charging stations out there be used universally by all EV cars?
• Yes. and better yet most are FREE to use.

How much on average does your monthly electricity bill increase with the Leaf (i will definitely charge it up every night)
• Depends on you electric rate, and how many miles you drive. Here the rate is 10.653 cents/kw. We are displaying 4 .5 miles per KW so doing the math 1,000 miles costs $23.67 in electric.

How’s the insurance rate and resale value of an EV compare to regular cars?
• Insurance went up $12 every 6 months ($2/month) over the 2014 F150 it replaced.

 

[GRA]

Re public charging, a couple of points. There are currently four different charging standards. J1772 (AC)*; J1772 CCS (DC); CHAdeMO (DC)**; Tesla (AC/DC). The LEAF can use those with asterisks (but CHAdeMO only if equipped from the factory).

J1772 is the most common in most areas, as it was intended to be a universal standard. CHAdeMO, CCS and Tesla are all DC standards that allow much faster charge rates. Before you decide to get a Plug-in Electric Vehicle or PEV (any make), if you think you might wish to use public charging, or will need to rely on it, check out Plugshare: http://www.plugshare.com to see what's available in your area. In the box at upper right that has four check boxes, uncheck the box labeled "Residential chargers," then click on "More Options" at the bottom. That will open the "Settings" page. In the section at the top titled "Outlets (Local)" uncheck any box with the word "Tesla" in it, as well as the boxes labelled "NEMA 14-50" (some EVSEs allow you to use these with an adapter) and "SAE Combo CCS", then go down to the "Filters" section and uncheck the box labeled "Payment Required", then close the"Settings" box. You might also want to uncheck the "Wall Outlet (120V)" box, as you're primarily interested in faster (L2 and QC) charging unless your daily mileage needs will be very limited. Look in your area and click on the individual sites you might be interested in using, to see if they're working and any problems that people have reported recently.

Pricing of public charging. Most public pay charging is much more expensive than what you pay for electricity at home; at the moment, it's often considerably more expensive than gasoline or diesel, so don't expect to save money on 'fuel' if you must rely on public charging. Some charging sites provide free charging, but the areas where this is available tend to be limited, and it's often limited to retail businesses or government entities that provide it as they do 'free' parking. If you've got it, great, but if you have to rely on it, don't assume that it will be free forever, or that you will never find it blocked or broken. That's the problem with free - everyone wants to use it, and they have no incentive to move when they're done. To find sites that are more likely to be available, leave the "Payment Required" box above checked. And even that doesn't guarantee that you won't find such sites in use, or that they won't be blocked by a fossil-fueled car parked in the space by accident or intent, known as 'ICEing'. The point being that you really want to have guaranteed charging, either at home, work or both before a PEV, especially a BEV (Battery-Electric Vehicle) like the LEAF makes sense for most people.

 

[cwerdna]

I wonder if this user will actually read our responses and answer our questions...

As of right now, they
"Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2015 3:56 pm
Last active: Mon Nov 09, 2015 4:28 pm"

I don't think it's worth spending any more time answering until there's some sign of activity from them.

 

[paulcone]

I wonder if this user will actually read our responses and answer our questions...

As of right now, they
"Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2015 3:56 pm
Last active: Mon Nov 09, 2015 4:28 pm"

I don't think it's worth spending any more time answering until there's some sign of activity from them.

That would make sense if we were all just emailing the user answers directly, but this is a public forum, so others (such as myself) can benefit from the answers even if the OP never returns again.